Exhausted Pilots
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Some more letters that appeared in the SCMP today after the paper published the entire letter from the C and T's:
-What a great letter. I read it twice to understand it better. These are not just captains, but the captains that TRAIN and CHECK other captains & pilots. The decline in experience levels of the staff (pilots) and the fatigue levels are definitely a concern for Cathay and all of us. (I had to read it twice to understand the fatigue issues - I get it now.. basically, I'm always jet-lagged after one flight, imagine doing that all year round + being told to go to Europe, then back at 4am, try to sleep that day (jet-lag impossible) & off to Singapore then maybe off to America - totally crazy time-zones & jetlag & weird rest in between = totally tired pilots and they are being made to fly to their MAXIMUM SAFETY LIMITS with hours. Not maximum normal/ ideal limits, but maximum SAFETY LIMITS..). Great letter. Great job scmp in sharing it with us.
-I'm not quite sure what a Cambridge PPE has got to do with the price of eggs as it relates to being Director of Flight Operations. I'm all for urbane educated generalists running the show at the meta level, but this is a deeply serious multi-faceted technical job and surely the career path should include a significant flying component early on? Anyway, I don't think Juan Trippe would have approved!
-Not sure why there so many problems with pilots but I do know that Cathy pilots are the best in the world, I do hope they sort things out soon.
-What a great letter. I read it twice to understand it better. These are not just captains, but the captains that TRAIN and CHECK other captains & pilots. The decline in experience levels of the staff (pilots) and the fatigue levels are definitely a concern for Cathay and all of us. (I had to read it twice to understand the fatigue issues - I get it now.. basically, I'm always jet-lagged after one flight, imagine doing that all year round + being told to go to Europe, then back at 4am, try to sleep that day (jet-lag impossible) & off to Singapore then maybe off to America - totally crazy time-zones & jetlag & weird rest in between = totally tired pilots and they are being made to fly to their MAXIMUM SAFETY LIMITS with hours. Not maximum normal/ ideal limits, but maximum SAFETY LIMITS..). Great letter. Great job scmp in sharing it with us.
-I'm not quite sure what a Cambridge PPE has got to do with the price of eggs as it relates to being Director of Flight Operations. I'm all for urbane educated generalists running the show at the meta level, but this is a deeply serious multi-faceted technical job and surely the career path should include a significant flying component early on? Anyway, I don't think Juan Trippe would have approved!
-Not sure why there so many problems with pilots but I do know that Cathy pilots are the best in the world, I do hope they sort things out soon.
Cathay Pacific "Safety is our Number 1 priority " bull**** will not work for much longer.
The Director Of FLYING Operations is not qualified to fly anything other than a desk.
Therefore - except from reported speech - she simply has no idea what she's talking about.
Cathay Pacific's Number 1 priority is money.
The Director Of FLYING Operations is not qualified to fly anything other than a desk.
Therefore - except from reported speech - she simply has no idea what she's talking about.
Cathay Pacific's Number 1 priority is money.
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Curtain Rod,
Valid point.
Perhaps that is why CAD 360, which is the HKCAD's guide for compliance with an AOC, has a bit to say about what qualifications are needed to be a manager of an airline operation.
Three simple questions;
1. Is the Director of Flight Operations a member of Flight Operation management?
2. Does either the Director of Flight Operations or General Manager Aircrew have any Flight Crew licences at all, let alone a valid HK Air Transport Pilots Licence?
3. How much longer is the Director of HKCAD going to sit back and watch someone completely unqualified for the task run, quite literally, the operation into the ground?
Here's what CAD 360 says. The key words are "status", acceptance" and "Valid Flight Crew Licence".
Air Operator’s Certificates CAD 360 Operation of Aircraft Part ONE
April 2012 (Amdt 33) Chap 3/1
CHAPTER 3 - ORGANISATION AND FACILITIES
1. MANAGEMENT AND EXECUTIVE STAFF
1.1 A sound and effective management structure is essential to ensure the safe conduct of operations. It is particularly important that operational management should have proper status in the Organisation and be in suitably experienced and competent hand. The duties and responsibilities of managers and senior executives must be clearly defined in writing and chains of responsibility firmly established. The number and nature of the appointments will vary with the size and complexity of the Organisation. An excess of managers can lead to fragmentation of responsibility and control; this can result in as much difficulty and inefficiency as a shortage and a lowering of operational standards can easily follow. In general, the appointment of deputies for managerial posts should be kept to a minimum and particular care should be taken in defining their functions and responsibilities. The Director will wish to be satisfied that the management Organisation is adequate and properly matched to the operating network and commitments. Managers who are also undertaking flying duties must spend an appropriate amount of time on their ground duties. Leave and duty rosters must be arranged so as to ensure the continued presence of an effective operations management in Hong Kong.
1.2 The positions held by key personnel will normally be listed in each Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) and it will be a condition of the Certificate that the Director shall be given adequate notice of any intended change in appointments or functions. When there is a management change, the revised management organisation structure and listing of key staff members should be provided to CAD for acceptance. Apart from those who have direct control of flight operations, the operator or AOC applicant should also include personnel responsible for the safety management system (e.g. Safety Manager), ground operations, crew training and maintenance arrangements. Except where otherwise agreed with the Director, nominees should have the following minimum qualifications and experience: -
1.2.1 General
Five years relevant work experience, including two years in the aeronautical industry, and appropriate management experience. Comprehensive knowledge of regulatory requirements and familiarity with quality systems.
1.2.2 Flight Operations
Valid Flight Crew Licence relevant to operations to be conducted under the AOC
Valid point.
Perhaps that is why CAD 360, which is the HKCAD's guide for compliance with an AOC, has a bit to say about what qualifications are needed to be a manager of an airline operation.
Three simple questions;
1. Is the Director of Flight Operations a member of Flight Operation management?
2. Does either the Director of Flight Operations or General Manager Aircrew have any Flight Crew licences at all, let alone a valid HK Air Transport Pilots Licence?
3. How much longer is the Director of HKCAD going to sit back and watch someone completely unqualified for the task run, quite literally, the operation into the ground?
Here's what CAD 360 says. The key words are "status", acceptance" and "Valid Flight Crew Licence".
Air Operator’s Certificates CAD 360 Operation of Aircraft Part ONE
April 2012 (Amdt 33) Chap 3/1
CHAPTER 3 - ORGANISATION AND FACILITIES
1. MANAGEMENT AND EXECUTIVE STAFF
1.1 A sound and effective management structure is essential to ensure the safe conduct of operations. It is particularly important that operational management should have proper status in the Organisation and be in suitably experienced and competent hand. The duties and responsibilities of managers and senior executives must be clearly defined in writing and chains of responsibility firmly established. The number and nature of the appointments will vary with the size and complexity of the Organisation. An excess of managers can lead to fragmentation of responsibility and control; this can result in as much difficulty and inefficiency as a shortage and a lowering of operational standards can easily follow. In general, the appointment of deputies for managerial posts should be kept to a minimum and particular care should be taken in defining their functions and responsibilities. The Director will wish to be satisfied that the management Organisation is adequate and properly matched to the operating network and commitments. Managers who are also undertaking flying duties must spend an appropriate amount of time on their ground duties. Leave and duty rosters must be arranged so as to ensure the continued presence of an effective operations management in Hong Kong.
1.2 The positions held by key personnel will normally be listed in each Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) and it will be a condition of the Certificate that the Director shall be given adequate notice of any intended change in appointments or functions. When there is a management change, the revised management organisation structure and listing of key staff members should be provided to CAD for acceptance. Apart from those who have direct control of flight operations, the operator or AOC applicant should also include personnel responsible for the safety management system (e.g. Safety Manager), ground operations, crew training and maintenance arrangements. Except where otherwise agreed with the Director, nominees should have the following minimum qualifications and experience: -
1.2.1 General
Five years relevant work experience, including two years in the aeronautical industry, and appropriate management experience. Comprehensive knowledge of regulatory requirements and familiarity with quality systems.
1.2.2 Flight Operations
Valid Flight Crew Licence relevant to operations to be conducted under the AOC
Sorry to come back again but if that's the case, then the whole AOC is in jeapordy surely. How can that be when we just had several years with a bloody zoologist at the helm and that didn't work either.
The public MUST hear about these scandals.
SHOW US YOUR LICENCE ANNA!!
The public MUST hear about these scandals.
SHOW US YOUR LICENCE ANNA!!
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Actually, they pretty much have put a flight attendant in charge of engineering Curtain, I wish i was joking. Im sure with an impressive sum total of no aviation experience, she will negotiate great deals with all our suppliers... 
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Apparently......
They have circumvented this CAD requirement by having the manager of flt ops developement placed as their ' advisor'
Yes the 64 page newspaper chap
https://hk.linkedin.com/in/philelliot
They have circumvented this CAD requirement by having the manager of flt ops developement placed as their ' advisor'
Yes the 64 page newspaper chap
https://hk.linkedin.com/in/philelliot
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Australia papers have the letter!
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...-1227542606714
I like CX's response
With a hand built roster I was wondering which of the 2 roster builders monitor the roster for fatigue?!
I like CX's response
“Further, pilot’s rosters are designed and monitored to ensure fatigue is minimised.”
Last edited by Frogman1484; 24th Sep 2015 at 11:23.
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Roster monitored for fatigue - don't make me laugh
It does not matter a damn if they "monitor" the roster for fatigue. As anyone on the Freighter will tell you, the published roster is changed on a daily, and sometimes hourly basis. It is not uncommon to not fly a single rostered pattern in a month and to have in excess of 20 roster changes during that time. This and the daily calls from Crew Control to harrass one into "helping" them is what leads to extreme stress and fatigue. My family sometimes gets calls for me from CCTL even when I away on a trip - i'e. they don't even have a handle on where you are all the time. So how can this be "monitored". Simple, it can't be.
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Now I get it.
They just look at the original PUBLISHED roster to look at and 'monitor' fatigue.
For some reason, it always seems to indicate all is well. Nothing to see here....
They just look at the original PUBLISHED roster to look at and 'monitor' fatigue.
For some reason, it always seems to indicate all is well. Nothing to see here....
They just look at the original PUBLISHED roster to look at and 'monitor' fatigue.
For some reason, it always seems to indicate all is well. Nothing to see here...
For some reason, it always seems to indicate all is well. Nothing to see here...
SmartCap | Fatigue Monitoring System
short flights long nights
My last roster before I left EK ( thank God) was 96 flying hours, yes flying hours, plus 2 days of sim.( Emirates in their wisdom thought I needed a sim check 3 weeks before I left.)
including 2 sim sessions
short flights long nights
Frog, are they credit hours.or flying hours? I'm not trying to,knock you , just wondering. Because the EK pilots are flying 97 hours a month, God knows what the duty time is.
I am so glad I'm out of it.
I am so glad I'm out of it.
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Megan,
It looks like a really good piece of kit. BUT ... unless it's free and always gives them the answer they want . I.e. No fatigue they won't even look at it
SOPS. The majority of the company are bouncing off the 100 hours in 28 days or the 900 hours per annum and that is flying hours not credit
It looks like a really good piece of kit. BUT ... unless it's free and always gives them the answer they want . I.e. No fatigue they won't even look at it
SOPS. The majority of the company are bouncing off the 100 hours in 28 days or the 900 hours per annum and that is flying hours not credit
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It's flying hours for those asking.
And you know it's bad when they're calling out 2 pilots to do a sector each of a Taipei split duty because one hits 900 hours after one sector, and they're delaying a long haul flight down route until the Captain comes back down under his 900 hours in 12 months limit so he can do the flight home.
Taipei is about 1hr20 mins from Hong Kong btw!
Edit to say that some may be talking credit hours but the 900 in 12 & 100 in 28 are flying hour limits
And you know it's bad when they're calling out 2 pilots to do a sector each of a Taipei split duty because one hits 900 hours after one sector, and they're delaying a long haul flight down route until the Captain comes back down under his 900 hours in 12 months limit so he can do the flight home.
Taipei is about 1hr20 mins from Hong Kong btw!
Edit to say that some may be talking credit hours but the 900 in 12 & 100 in 28 are flying hour limits
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Liam,
Good points that you raise regarding the CAD requirements.
Just after the appointment of the DFO was announced I was doing a sim with a CAD examiner along for the "ride". We made casual reference to the appointment of the new DFO which was apparently news to him and the CAD.
He was genuinely shocked that CX had done this without the knowledge of the CAD and left early to make further inquiries.
Good points that you raise regarding the CAD requirements.
Just after the appointment of the DFO was announced I was doing a sim with a CAD examiner along for the "ride". We made casual reference to the appointment of the new DFO which was apparently news to him and the CAD.
He was genuinely shocked that CX had done this without the knowledge of the CAD and left early to make further inquiries.