CX 747 Anchorage?
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CX 747 Anchorage?
What happened to that unstable approach into Anchorage? Did they really get finally configured well below 500ft? Was fatigue an issue? All I hear is rumours and the fleet office is very quiet?
Dear Gus
This is notice of a CAD Flight Ops Inspection of your rostering system, adherence to FTLs and the crewing levels within Cathay Pacific Airways. This inspection is to take place immediately. Please be guided accordingly………………………….
This is notice of a CAD Flight Ops Inspection of your rostering system, adherence to FTLs and the crewing levels within Cathay Pacific Airways. This inspection is to take place immediately. Please be guided accordingly………………………….
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Well if fatigue was a factor and they fell asleep, then the FAA and CAD will be conducting an investigation..... NO wonder they are so quiet on the 9th floor....
Maybe they will finally open their eyes to the conditions we are now flying in..... But I'm not hopeful... When does management ever listen to logical thought?
Maybe they will finally open their eyes to the conditions we are now flying in..... But I'm not hopeful... When does management ever listen to logical thought?
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Got a mate of mine on the 747 at CX so some knowledge of what he does. Unlikely to be fatigue, more likely sleepiness. You guys need to understand the subtle difference (might be different on other fleets)
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Well, if it is indeed true and there is a "Dear...." letter I hope it's less contrite than some of the other ones.
There is no element of crew fault these days for someone falling asleep. Cumulative fatigue caused by continuous body clock swaps without regard to crew composition and acclimatization, min rest turns into off clock reserve or duty, max hours flown with wild swings into overtime, ad-hoc 3-man, having no idea what one is going to do in the future, etc. Factor into that a degree of coercion in legitimately calling fit for some duties while unfit for others, etc. (with last minute crew changes when any rest planning goes out the window) and it doesn't take Nostradamus to see what's going to happen. The train wreck of rostering makes stuff like this 'waiting to happen.' Of course, this has already been highlighted and so far what changes have we seen ? The pilot himself remains the only backstop, and sometimes you don't know what you don't know, or how tired you really are (or can be 'talked' into doing something you shouldn't).
As well things like a 1000 call to operate a midnight flight from an 0600-1400 reserve block when the duty was known by CC the day prior (but would retain the option of crewing a day flight at the last minute if held on reserve), followed by an off clock 0700-1100 HKG reserve where the unacclimatized individual had been up since midnight (and could be tagged with a 1045 callout to FTL limits). And that's on the best rostered airplane on the fleet.
The 'old' RPs weren't pulled out of thin air and there is factual basis in limits contractually arrived at in the past. Long haul flying and rostering has been going on for many decades and there is a great deal of corporate knowledge on how to safely, efficiently, and profitably accomplish it. It's just that you need to incorporate lessons learned over the years and be willing to check one's ego at the door (as well as overcome 'Not Invented Here' syndrome) to come to things that work for everyone. Simply tossing things out the window and saying "here's how we are going to do it" may not be the best thing to do.
It's not like we don't know quite a bit about fatigue; some of the first courses folks get in indoc are human factors courses. There's plenty of studies and data on the subject. But they don't do a lot of good sitting on a shelf somewhere.
I don't know about others but I can't remember the last time I had a real decent nights' sleep. These patterns carry into off days as well; the body takes time to adjust. Continuous reserve, endless roster disruptions, having to pull reserve in a noisy hotel or crash pad displaced from a stable home, and body clock swaps take their toll in time and older folks have less flexibility in handling it.
When's the last time anyone's roster came anywhere close to anything published ? Or even close to the last iteration of a roster ? Or even make sense ?
Sleep depravation does screwy things over time. In fact, in conjunction with other stuff, it's one of the best types of interrogation techniques available. The brain stops functioning coherently and can't remember what it's done when. Or sometimes when to say when.
There is no element of crew fault these days for someone falling asleep. Cumulative fatigue caused by continuous body clock swaps without regard to crew composition and acclimatization, min rest turns into off clock reserve or duty, max hours flown with wild swings into overtime, ad-hoc 3-man, having no idea what one is going to do in the future, etc. Factor into that a degree of coercion in legitimately calling fit for some duties while unfit for others, etc. (with last minute crew changes when any rest planning goes out the window) and it doesn't take Nostradamus to see what's going to happen. The train wreck of rostering makes stuff like this 'waiting to happen.' Of course, this has already been highlighted and so far what changes have we seen ? The pilot himself remains the only backstop, and sometimes you don't know what you don't know, or how tired you really are (or can be 'talked' into doing something you shouldn't).
As well things like a 1000 call to operate a midnight flight from an 0600-1400 reserve block when the duty was known by CC the day prior (but would retain the option of crewing a day flight at the last minute if held on reserve), followed by an off clock 0700-1100 HKG reserve where the unacclimatized individual had been up since midnight (and could be tagged with a 1045 callout to FTL limits). And that's on the best rostered airplane on the fleet.
The 'old' RPs weren't pulled out of thin air and there is factual basis in limits contractually arrived at in the past. Long haul flying and rostering has been going on for many decades and there is a great deal of corporate knowledge on how to safely, efficiently, and profitably accomplish it. It's just that you need to incorporate lessons learned over the years and be willing to check one's ego at the door (as well as overcome 'Not Invented Here' syndrome) to come to things that work for everyone. Simply tossing things out the window and saying "here's how we are going to do it" may not be the best thing to do.
It's not like we don't know quite a bit about fatigue; some of the first courses folks get in indoc are human factors courses. There's plenty of studies and data on the subject. But they don't do a lot of good sitting on a shelf somewhere.
I don't know about others but I can't remember the last time I had a real decent nights' sleep. These patterns carry into off days as well; the body takes time to adjust. Continuous reserve, endless roster disruptions, having to pull reserve in a noisy hotel or crash pad displaced from a stable home, and body clock swaps take their toll in time and older folks have less flexibility in handling it.
When's the last time anyone's roster came anywhere close to anything published ? Or even close to the last iteration of a roster ? Or even make sense ?
Sleep depravation does screwy things over time. In fact, in conjunction with other stuff, it's one of the best types of interrogation techniques available. The brain stops functioning coherently and can't remember what it's done when. Or sometimes when to say when.
Last edited by Shep69; 19th Sep 2015 at 22:11.
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Twiglet, you moron!
Unlikely to be fatigue, more likely sleepiness. You guys need to understand the subtle difference
Grow up.
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This is notice of a CAD Flight Ops Inspection of your rostering system,
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Twiglet please enlighten us ! You might know things we don't.
I agree, this is not the right place to discuss this particular event, I think it is a very delicate matter and two colleagues and fellow pilots are involved.
I agree, this is not the right place to discuss this particular event, I think it is a very delicate matter and two colleagues and fellow pilots are involved.
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Sleep studies - now that really gets my blood pressure up!
Almost every single study that I have ever seen is based on shift workers. What a laugh. Shift workers such as truckers, cops and nurses work regular shifts which they often are advised of months in advance. They then work a night shift or a day shift for a defined period before switching again with a bunch of time off in between to allow them to adjust. Boy, the stress that must cause!
I do not know of a single study that studies the crazy disruptive life of aircrew where day shift and night shift are meaningless terms depending where on the planet you find yourself. Any pilot knows what bodyclock time means and we become obsessed with sleep routines and sleep disruption. But few outsiders, researchers included, have ever come close to understanding this disruption and what it does to the body and mind.
A NASA study did some work on this years ago but the research has been largely ignored by the dumbos who write crew rosters, especially in regard to the idiotic principle of 24 hour layovers. Pretty much the Cathay standard!
Anyone at a scientific institute willing to step up to the plate? I doubt it..
Almost every single study that I have ever seen is based on shift workers. What a laugh. Shift workers such as truckers, cops and nurses work regular shifts which they often are advised of months in advance. They then work a night shift or a day shift for a defined period before switching again with a bunch of time off in between to allow them to adjust. Boy, the stress that must cause!
I do not know of a single study that studies the crazy disruptive life of aircrew where day shift and night shift are meaningless terms depending where on the planet you find yourself. Any pilot knows what bodyclock time means and we become obsessed with sleep routines and sleep disruption. But few outsiders, researchers included, have ever come close to understanding this disruption and what it does to the body and mind.
A NASA study did some work on this years ago but the research has been largely ignored by the dumbos who write crew rosters, especially in regard to the idiotic principle of 24 hour layovers. Pretty much the Cathay standard!
Anyone at a scientific institute willing to step up to the plate? I doubt it..
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Yes there has been a statement. Along with the statements regarding a Dual HYD failure, 5 A330s being grounded as the same engineer worked on them, and Flaps falling of the Freighters.
I've heard that the statements are buried along with RP07
I've heard that the statements are buried along with RP07
