Just Say No to Cathay - Here is why...
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I currently have an application for employment as aircrew on file with Cathay Pacific. I would like to be notified when the recruitment Ban is lifted.
Sincerely, ___________________
Based USA
Sincerely, ___________________
Based USA
Lots more too.
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Say YES...here is why...
Nicely written post from the AOA, pitty about all the lies:
I have not yet spoken to a CX pilot who supports the ban. It was instigated by the AOA committee (the 49ers) without going to the membership. Perhaps the committee (the 49ers) should leave the AOA officers and meet some line pilots instead of spending all their time in mutual support b*llsh*t sessions.
The AOA DOES support intimidation. They host/ control/administer a site (cprune)which listed the so-called scabs. They have put in place the ban which is all about intimidation.
CX pilots have replaced the sacked a long time ago. We have taken upgrades to F/O and Command. We have taken the basings of the overseas sacked pilots.
Each and every one of the 49ers were sacked for very good reasons. The company did not follow the D&G procedures or make the reasons public for legal reasons. The 49ers will NOT get their jobs back via the courts (nor by the current AOA policies). The 49ers we carefully chosen. The are NOT victims.
This is a great airline - it makes $. The more $ers any company makes, the better your future. There are very few (if any) other airlines which make the return on investment that CX does, and this is without government support - CX is VERY well managed - just ask anyone what it is like to work for any company which loses $.
Come and join us (but don't expect to start before next March - the courses are already full). Don't let the AOA lies and intimidation put you off.
I have not yet spoken to a CX pilot who supports the ban. It was instigated by the AOA committee (the 49ers) without going to the membership. Perhaps the committee (the 49ers) should leave the AOA officers and meet some line pilots instead of spending all their time in mutual support b*llsh*t sessions.
The AOA DOES support intimidation. They host/ control/administer a site (cprune)which listed the so-called scabs. They have put in place the ban which is all about intimidation.
CX pilots have replaced the sacked a long time ago. We have taken upgrades to F/O and Command. We have taken the basings of the overseas sacked pilots.
Each and every one of the 49ers were sacked for very good reasons. The company did not follow the D&G procedures or make the reasons public for legal reasons. The 49ers will NOT get their jobs back via the courts (nor by the current AOA policies). The 49ers we carefully chosen. The are NOT victims.
This is a great airline - it makes $. The more $ers any company makes, the better your future. There are very few (if any) other airlines which make the return on investment that CX does, and this is without government support - CX is VERY well managed - just ask anyone what it is like to work for any company which loses $.
Come and join us (but don't expect to start before next March - the courses are already full). Don't let the AOA lies and intimidation put you off.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 29th Jun 2002 at 17:57.
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The Tip of the Iceberg
I've just finished reading about the "49ers" on your website, and am very moved.
I am a 7X7 First Officer, and have been interested in coming to work for Cathay for some time. I was excited to read on the Cathay website that the airline would be hiring pilots again soon.
Upon learning of Cathay's intent to hire, I contacted a friend who flies for Cathay. He let me know about the can of worms management has created there, and told me about the
Recruitment Ban. A few days later I got my copy of Airline Pilot (US-ALPA member magazine), and read about the trouble you all are having.
You should know that the ALPA pilots around the world are talking about your plight, and we support you. I will, of course, honour the Ban. You must win this battle, or Cathay will not be a place any pilot will want to work.
I am a 7X7 First Officer, and have been interested in coming to work for Cathay for some time. I was excited to read on the Cathay website that the airline would be hiring pilots again soon.
Upon learning of Cathay's intent to hire, I contacted a friend who flies for Cathay. He let me know about the can of worms management has created there, and told me about the
Recruitment Ban. A few days later I got my copy of Airline Pilot (US-ALPA member magazine), and read about the trouble you all are having.
You should know that the ALPA pilots around the world are talking about your plight, and we support you. I will, of course, honour the Ban. You must win this battle, or Cathay will not be a place any pilot will want to work.
Many many more like this have been received by the AOA
Last edited by realitycx; 29th Jun 2002 at 15:49.
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realitycx:
Are you for real? There are thousands of professional pilots out there looking for a decent job, and you are flogging altruism?
Are you for real? There are thousands of professional pilots out there looking for a decent job, and you are flogging altruism?
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 29th Jun 2002 at 23:38.
realitycx et al,
The point is not how many pilots support you. I support the intent of your action (Though I TOTALLY disagree with it's form e.g the ban).
But if only a small percentage of pilots DON'T support you (and evidently, by the fact that CX is employing sufficient pilots and judging by responses on this forum, it is more than a small percentage,) your strategy will simply fail, while having the adverse effects on your situation that have been well thrashed out here.
I simply can't understand why you would persist with a path that just won't work. Is it simply to express some form of moral outrage? Or is it, as I sometimes fear, to provide yourselves with a group of scapegoats you can blame for your problems?
Ultimatley it doesn't matter who's morally right or wrong, what matters is who wins. Because the HKAOA was not willing to take sufficiently strong action and posibbly risk their professtional future, but rather put the onus on young incumbents to fight on their behalf, you are losing.
Why flog a dead horse that does nothing but create more victims? Drop the ban, regroup, and try something that might work!!
The point is not how many pilots support you. I support the intent of your action (Though I TOTALLY disagree with it's form e.g the ban).
But if only a small percentage of pilots DON'T support you (and evidently, by the fact that CX is employing sufficient pilots and judging by responses on this forum, it is more than a small percentage,) your strategy will simply fail, while having the adverse effects on your situation that have been well thrashed out here.
I simply can't understand why you would persist with a path that just won't work. Is it simply to express some form of moral outrage? Or is it, as I sometimes fear, to provide yourselves with a group of scapegoats you can blame for your problems?
Ultimatley it doesn't matter who's morally right or wrong, what matters is who wins. Because the HKAOA was not willing to take sufficiently strong action and posibbly risk their professtional future, but rather put the onus on young incumbents to fight on their behalf, you are losing.
Why flog a dead horse that does nothing but create more victims? Drop the ban, regroup, and try something that might work!!
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For those of us lucky enough to be employed by a decent company I can see why one would think twice before applying or accepting a position with CX.
However, it is perhaps foolish to think that those employed around the world in general aviation or by other less than professional organisations to refuse an offer from CX.
While those lower on the food chain, (in this case those in positions in the industry I have just mentioned above) are continued to be treated like dirt, CX will have a steady flow of applicants.
Remember also people, generally most pilots are a selfish, money hungry species who will usually do almost anything to jump the fence to greener pastures. No doubt these are traits which have been developed as a sort of survival mechanism after years of abuse in this wonderful industry.
A ban of this sort I feel will never work due to some of the factors I have mentioned in this post.
For those who wish to persist at applying pressure to management perhaps it is time for a change in tactics ??
However, it is perhaps foolish to think that those employed around the world in general aviation or by other less than professional organisations to refuse an offer from CX.
While those lower on the food chain, (in this case those in positions in the industry I have just mentioned above) are continued to be treated like dirt, CX will have a steady flow of applicants.
Remember also people, generally most pilots are a selfish, money hungry species who will usually do almost anything to jump the fence to greener pastures. No doubt these are traits which have been developed as a sort of survival mechanism after years of abuse in this wonderful industry.
A ban of this sort I feel will never work due to some of the factors I have mentioned in this post.
For those who wish to persist at applying pressure to management perhaps it is time for a change in tactics ??
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Regardless of what people think of the IFALPA ban, it exists.As someone who has ignored the ban your life in HK will be awful and I'm not talking about intimidation or bully tactics. You will always be "one of them". Given the history of management in dealing with it's workforce no special privileges will be afforded you. The check and trainers who are strong union members will move up the ranks and you'll have them to deal with. This is a fact of life.
The pilots who have accepted the jobs have been blacklisted by IFALPA. Now they may say "I don't care". But the fact remains they have been blacklisted. Cathay is not a long term job and moving somewhere else in the medium to long term is a certainty. Being blacklisted will do you no good at all. Look at all the Ansett Scabs now that can't get jobs.
Like I said, it doesn't matter if you don't agree with or like it. It exists.
Before anyone gets on my case I just want to point out that the Pilots at CX should have done a lot more for themselves and refused upgrades etc. I agree completely. Just say the word and I'm on a picket line. I'm just trying to point out that you ignore the ban at your peril.
Finally, after this ****fight is over there will be jobs galore at CX. The FOPS management will recruit everyone and anyone regardless of whether you honored the ban or not.
It will be worth the wait.
FYI The ban is close to 100% effective in N America. Thanks people.
The pilots who have accepted the jobs have been blacklisted by IFALPA. Now they may say "I don't care". But the fact remains they have been blacklisted. Cathay is not a long term job and moving somewhere else in the medium to long term is a certainty. Being blacklisted will do you no good at all. Look at all the Ansett Scabs now that can't get jobs.
Like I said, it doesn't matter if you don't agree with or like it. It exists.
Before anyone gets on my case I just want to point out that the Pilots at CX should have done a lot more for themselves and refused upgrades etc. I agree completely. Just say the word and I'm on a picket line. I'm just trying to point out that you ignore the ban at your peril.
Finally, after this ****fight is over there will be jobs galore at CX. The FOPS management will recruit everyone and anyone regardless of whether you honored the ban or not.
It will be worth the wait.
FYI The ban is close to 100% effective in N America. Thanks people.
Last edited by Airport Train; 30th Jun 2002 at 03:46.
Easy to say frankg, but wil you accept the consequences of this strategy if they are to your detriment, or blame everyone else for the results of your actions?
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i believe many check/training captains, if not most, are not union members.
just to clarify this means nothing in terms of my views on the ban.
just to clarify this means nothing in terms of my views on the ban.
Last edited by reliefer; 30th Jun 2002 at 06:40.
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AirportTrain and Others,
Well now, a C & T is employed to check and train on behalf of the company is he not? The Company that pays him.
I certainly hope you don't have people in the C & T pipeline or out there now who would be sufficiently unprofessional as to allow union matters to influence their judgement of an individual?
Do you?
If suggesting that someones career might be cut short by C & T for totally unrelated matters is not a threat then I wouldn't know a threat if it got up and bit me!
I certainly hope you don't have people in the C & T pipeline or out there now who would be sufficiently unprofessional as to allow union matters to influence their judgement of an individual?
Do you?
If suggesting that someones career might be cut short by C & T for totally unrelated matters is not a threat then I wouldn't know a threat if it got up and bit me!
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I am absolutely certain that not a single pilot in CX will let the fact that the person sitting next to him joined in contravention of the recruitment ban colour his judgment.
The majority of the C&T department are union members. The Airbus trainers are particularly on side.
The majority of the C&T department are union members. The Airbus trainers are particularly on side.
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There were a number of C&T captains that made life hell for ASL recruits. For a number of reasons the failure rate amongst the DE captains ran at 60-70% at one stage. Having said that the majority of C&T captains always played fair although that did not mean they had to be friendly or socialise with you if you get what I mean!
Things are different now as there is a formal IFALPA ban on recruitment. Although individual AOA C&T captains will be courteous and correct I would think they will be less forgiving in their write-ups.
On balance I would strongly caution against the acceptance of a position until such time as this is mess sorted out. This could be sooner rather than later. It could also be tied up with a new contract ( source: Street rumors) if things don't go the way the company want. If that happens all sorts of options may manifest themselves - not necessarily to the advantage of individual crew members. CX is NOT the CX of old. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
In short - enjoy the summer. Watch baseball/cricket/World Cup/Wimbledon/golf. Wait until Autumn before you start decision making.
As an ASL crew member I do not condone the firing of the 49. A proper D&G process should have been followed if the company felt strongly about the individuals concerned.
A third party from outside the SAR, without connection to either CX or the AOA, ought to be brought in to mediate a face saving, practical solution.
As and when this is resolved there will indeed be jobs galore to feed the expansion.
<retreats back into shell>
Things are different now as there is a formal IFALPA ban on recruitment. Although individual AOA C&T captains will be courteous and correct I would think they will be less forgiving in their write-ups.
On balance I would strongly caution against the acceptance of a position until such time as this is mess sorted out. This could be sooner rather than later. It could also be tied up with a new contract ( source: Street rumors) if things don't go the way the company want. If that happens all sorts of options may manifest themselves - not necessarily to the advantage of individual crew members. CX is NOT the CX of old. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
In short - enjoy the summer. Watch baseball/cricket/World Cup/Wimbledon/golf. Wait until Autumn before you start decision making.
As an ASL crew member I do not condone the firing of the 49. A proper D&G process should have been followed if the company felt strongly about the individuals concerned.
A third party from outside the SAR, without connection to either CX or the AOA, ought to be brought in to mediate a face saving, practical solution.
As and when this is resolved there will indeed be jobs galore to feed the expansion.
<retreats back into shell>
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49er buys Audi covertable
Frankg & 6feetunder
Since you asked...
It does not matter how many of the committee are 49ers - what matters is that the committee and direction of the AOA is curently driven by the 49ers. The real issue is if we have a binding contract or not. This will only be decided by a court of law (and I won't put $ on the AOA ever winning a thing in a HKG court).
I am a member of the militant bunch of fools called the AOA. If the current direction is maintained after the elections, I'll leave. As I have said before, I wish we had a professional body to look after our interests.
Perhaps someone could tell me why I should keep on paying my 4% when a 49er (aussi ex airbus f/o) feels it is ok to take holidays all over the world and has just brought himself an Audi convertable for 30,000 pounds?
Since you asked...
It does not matter how many of the committee are 49ers - what matters is that the committee and direction of the AOA is curently driven by the 49ers. The real issue is if we have a binding contract or not. This will only be decided by a court of law (and I won't put $ on the AOA ever winning a thing in a HKG court).
I am a member of the militant bunch of fools called the AOA. If the current direction is maintained after the elections, I'll leave. As I have said before, I wish we had a professional body to look after our interests.
Perhaps someone could tell me why I should keep on paying my 4% when a 49er (aussi ex airbus f/o) feels it is ok to take holidays all over the world and has just brought himself an Audi convertable for 30,000 pounds?
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Misinformation?
Pilotabroad, you wrote:
I am not aware of any new joiners since the original baker's dozen. If there are some more, they are keeping a very low profile and the company are keeping them well hidden (ie away from flightdecks).
There have been some cadet courses start - but they are exempt the ban.
Come and join us (but don't expect to start before next March - the courses are already full).
There have been some cadet courses start - but they are exempt the ban.
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realitycx:
Why would a cadet course be exempt from the ban? Any rational explanation behind this?
Together with the "no ban" on upgrades, there appear to be more exemptions than bans out there!
Why would a cadet course be exempt from the ban? Any rational explanation behind this?
Together with the "no ban" on upgrades, there appear to be more exemptions than bans out there!
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Reality Check
Direction , Unity and Co-operation is what’s needed from the pilots in order to achieve your goals over the coming months.
The company have clearly shown that they will not negotiate under present circumstances , the majority of you know this all to well. Don’t let the anger and “Hold Face” stubbornness of the AOA jeopardise the future for the majority of the pilots.
The ban is not working , it has been implemented at the worst possible time in aviation history i.e.: Post 9/11 Attacks. The abundance of qualified workers will continue to join regardless of the demands of the AOA.
Change tactics , get a grip move forward and get back to the negotiation table. For now put the 49’ers a side for a few weeks , concentrate on getting the best possible outcome for the people who are still happy to continue their career’s with Cathay , this is the most important task at hand.
Once you have secured contracts and conditions that everyone is happy with and have established a line of communication with management , then work towards assisting the 49’ers for reinstatement.
FAN MAN
The company have clearly shown that they will not negotiate under present circumstances , the majority of you know this all to well. Don’t let the anger and “Hold Face” stubbornness of the AOA jeopardise the future for the majority of the pilots.
The ban is not working , it has been implemented at the worst possible time in aviation history i.e.: Post 9/11 Attacks. The abundance of qualified workers will continue to join regardless of the demands of the AOA.
Change tactics , get a grip move forward and get back to the negotiation table. For now put the 49’ers a side for a few weeks , concentrate on getting the best possible outcome for the people who are still happy to continue their career’s with Cathay , this is the most important task at hand.
Once you have secured contracts and conditions that everyone is happy with and have established a line of communication with management , then work towards assisting the 49’ers for reinstatement.
FAN MAN