German plane crash
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German plane crash
From the guardian newspaper
"All 150 passengers and crew on an Airbus A320 flying from Barcelona to Düsseldorf are believed dead after it rapidly lost height and began an as yet unexplained descent into a remote and mountainous area of southern France.
The chief executive of Lufthansa’s lowcost arm, Germanwings, said the aircraft reached its cruising height of 38,000ft at 10.45am, 44 minutes into the flight, and began the descent just a minute or two later. Contact was lost at 10.53am when the plane was at 6,000ft."
"All 150 passengers and crew on an Airbus A320 flying from Barcelona to Düsseldorf are believed dead after it rapidly lost height and began an as yet unexplained descent into a remote and mountainous area of southern France.
The chief executive of Lufthansa’s lowcost arm, Germanwings, said the aircraft reached its cruising height of 38,000ft at 10.45am, 44 minutes into the flight, and began the descent just a minute or two later. Contact was lost at 10.53am when the plane was at 6,000ft."
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Latest news on the crash
Only one pilot was at the controls at the time of the crash , the other apparently was locked out of the flight deck , trying very hard to get back in
I guess this validates the company policy of having another crew member in the flight deck at all times
Only one pilot was at the controls at the time of the crash , the other apparently was locked out of the flight deck , trying very hard to get back in
I guess this validates the company policy of having another crew member in the flight deck at all times
Agreed. And how about removing stressors on pilots such as overwork, ever-changing rosters, and inadequate salary and housing. Providing adequate leave, and time off in times of personal crisis and sickness, along with peer support.
Also, recruitment of new pilots who are dedicated, motivated aviation people with previous flying experience and have done the 'hard yards'. Traditional recruitment processes including thorough interview sequences by pilots, not HR dogsbodies. A sympathetic and pro-active training system and predictable and consistent promotion. Avoidance of recruitment of pilots who hold extreme religious beliefs. Competent,approachable managers who are not just interested in their next bonus and will stand up for their pilots. Bonding and 'pay to fly' made illegal.
But I guess the only group who would drive all this would be the insurers.
Egypt Air, Silk Air, Malaysian, we don't know what happened to Air Asia, several others alluded to on the current thread on the R and N forum, and now a German Wings captain locked out of his cockpit. Not jumping to conclusions, but it really is becoming a worry.
Also, recruitment of new pilots who are dedicated, motivated aviation people with previous flying experience and have done the 'hard yards'. Traditional recruitment processes including thorough interview sequences by pilots, not HR dogsbodies. A sympathetic and pro-active training system and predictable and consistent promotion. Avoidance of recruitment of pilots who hold extreme religious beliefs. Competent,approachable managers who are not just interested in their next bonus and will stand up for their pilots. Bonding and 'pay to fly' made illegal.
But I guess the only group who would drive all this would be the insurers.
Egypt Air, Silk Air, Malaysian, we don't know what happened to Air Asia, several others alluded to on the current thread on the R and N forum, and now a German Wings captain locked out of his cockpit. Not jumping to conclusions, but it really is becoming a worry.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 26th Mar 2015 at 07:03.
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@Captain Dart
What makes you say it was the captain?
Are you implying that the "stressors" you refer to and recruitment issues were factors in this accident? If so, how do you make that assertion? If not, why post it in the first place?
and now a German Wings captain locked out of his cockpit
Are you implying that the "stressors" you refer to and recruitment issues were factors in this accident? If so, how do you make that assertion? If not, why post it in the first place?
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Why was he suicidal? A year into his perceived dream job, living with parents, most likely paying back a huge loan from training, about to receive a 40% paycut.
What an absolute piece of
for going about it in the manner that he did!
What an absolute piece of
for going about it in the manner that he did!
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Mass murder doesnt need a gun....
Horrible sickening tragedy, but interesting seeing his very low time.....and knowing how little we dont even test the new guys pysc profile during recruitment at this airline.....cause it costs money...and everyone is already hearing about some of the more famous ones gettiing thru barely by the skin of their teeth. Wonder what they will do when they are up to the fleet departement so many times and all the stress they would be feeling to pass their JFO upgrade or QL?
All airlines are suffering from very low time very inexperienced guys....who would have been weeded out in General aviation/regional flying years before they got to a jet. Now the airlines are left weeding these guys at airline jet level.
Either flying incompentence or stuff like this is the future for air crashes....you can make planes safe but we have humans at the controls.
Horrible sickening tragedy, but interesting seeing his very low time.....and knowing how little we dont even test the new guys pysc profile during recruitment at this airline.....cause it costs money...and everyone is already hearing about some of the more famous ones gettiing thru barely by the skin of their teeth. Wonder what they will do when they are up to the fleet departement so many times and all the stress they would be feeling to pass their JFO upgrade or QL?
All airlines are suffering from very low time very inexperienced guys....who would have been weeded out in General aviation/regional flying years before they got to a jet. Now the airlines are left weeding these guys at airline jet level.
Either flying incompentence or stuff like this is the future for air crashes....you can make planes safe but we have humans at the controls.
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The fact of the matter is, we as Airline Pilots are in a position of trust. This is the case because of the tremendous responsibility that rests upon our shoulders every time we operate an aircraft.
There was a time not so long ago when this trust was acknowledged and rewarded. This made the job very desirable which in turn resulted in immense competition for entry into this career path.
Unfortunately managers and bean counters have embarked on a concerted effort to stop acknowledging our role, and in some cases even have programs in place to do the opposite, essentially aiming to beat us down until we are convinced that our role is insignificant. It is after all easier to attack an enemy that is already wounded and lacks confidence. Does anyone not wonder why corporate pilots are not subjected to the same downward pressures that we are (decreasing wages, erosion of benefits, increasing productivity, fatigue levels that make it difficult to lead a normal life away from work, etc.)?
In my opinion, these type of unfortunate events are simply a side effect of the damaging campaign which is in progress against our profession. Furthermore, instead of doing the right thing and reconsidering the assault on the modern airline pilot, the industry will likely make the burden on us even worse with numerous bandaid solutions that make our job even more thankless and miserable. How far must we go before sanity prevails?
There was a time not so long ago when this trust was acknowledged and rewarded. This made the job very desirable which in turn resulted in immense competition for entry into this career path.
Unfortunately managers and bean counters have embarked on a concerted effort to stop acknowledging our role, and in some cases even have programs in place to do the opposite, essentially aiming to beat us down until we are convinced that our role is insignificant. It is after all easier to attack an enemy that is already wounded and lacks confidence. Does anyone not wonder why corporate pilots are not subjected to the same downward pressures that we are (decreasing wages, erosion of benefits, increasing productivity, fatigue levels that make it difficult to lead a normal life away from work, etc.)?
In my opinion, these type of unfortunate events are simply a side effect of the damaging campaign which is in progress against our profession. Furthermore, instead of doing the right thing and reconsidering the assault on the modern airline pilot, the industry will likely make the burden on us even worse with numerous bandaid solutions that make our job even more thankless and miserable. How far must we go before sanity prevails?
Posted in R&N
We really must make these jobs worth their candle - even at the cost of the ticket price. Professional pilots terms and conditions, rostering, rest periods, FTLs, have been eroded for the past decade if not longer. The job MUST be made tolerable, or we will generate more of these tragedies...
This does not necessarily mean more pay - just better overall conditions and a culture of valuing professional pilots.
With more low time cadets being taken into the teams, we must value them. They are the Captains of the next generation.
This does not necessarily mean more pay - just better overall conditions and a culture of valuing professional pilots.
With more low time cadets being taken into the teams, we must value them. They are the Captains of the next generation.
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Okay I'm probably getting ahead of myself , and none of the following are verified facts but
According to certain websites still to be verified, the Co pilot Lubitz had been dating a Muslim girl and had broken it off with her after after declaring jihad for Allah .
"Mr Spohr said Mr Lubitz's training had been interrupted for several months six years ago, but did not say why.
The training was resumed after "the suitability of the candidate was re-established", he said."
Police have taken computers and evidence from his house but refused to say what the evidence was
Lubitz's breathing was not heard to change during the entire descent and he uttered not a word. Very scary
Maybe it's time we had a remote that could be used to regain access to the flight deck if required . This kind of event is just becoming too far too common
The fact that the passengers were screaming just before impact indicates that they knew what was about to take place . I cannot imagine the terror they had to endure.
According to certain websites still to be verified, the Co pilot Lubitz had been dating a Muslim girl and had broken it off with her after after declaring jihad for Allah .
"Mr Spohr said Mr Lubitz's training had been interrupted for several months six years ago, but did not say why.
The training was resumed after "the suitability of the candidate was re-established", he said."
Police have taken computers and evidence from his house but refused to say what the evidence was
Lubitz's breathing was not heard to change during the entire descent and he uttered not a word. Very scary
Maybe it's time we had a remote that could be used to regain access to the flight deck if required . This kind of event is just becoming too far too common
The fact that the passengers were screaming just before impact indicates that they knew what was about to take place . I cannot imagine the terror they had to endure.
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Egypt Air 990 was (likely) put into the water by a suicidal pilot with no one else on the flight deck (somewhat covered up by political correctness).
This aircraft was put into a mountain by a suicidal pilot with no one else on the flight deck.
The jury is still out on MH 370 so no one knows who was where or what happened.
Likewise on Silk Air 185 which could have been either a suicide or rudder PCU malfunction.
It's likely that there will be some mealy-mouth nonsense about background checks, psych testing, monitoring, regulatory intervention, etc. which would do no good whatsoever because someone always slips through the cracks and armchair quarterbacks later scream about red flags that no one ever sees until after the fact. No gee whiz batman stuff can fix a clever person intent on doing harm to himself and others. What CAN help is when one takes care of his friends and mates as he should and folks watch out for each other. But this can in practice only go so far.
One thing that CAN be done relatively easily is require (as many carriers already do) a F/A replace a pilot who leaves to go to the back so there are always 2 on the flight deck. It's not foolproof by any means, but does provide an additional level of safety at minimal trouble and is a good practice no matter what. In addition, having someone else there might have potentially kept this guy off the ledge, or at least had someone who could have tried to open the door.
This aircraft was put into a mountain by a suicidal pilot with no one else on the flight deck.
The jury is still out on MH 370 so no one knows who was where or what happened.
Likewise on Silk Air 185 which could have been either a suicide or rudder PCU malfunction.
It's likely that there will be some mealy-mouth nonsense about background checks, psych testing, monitoring, regulatory intervention, etc. which would do no good whatsoever because someone always slips through the cracks and armchair quarterbacks later scream about red flags that no one ever sees until after the fact. No gee whiz batman stuff can fix a clever person intent on doing harm to himself and others. What CAN help is when one takes care of his friends and mates as he should and folks watch out for each other. But this can in practice only go so far.
One thing that CAN be done relatively easily is require (as many carriers already do) a F/A replace a pilot who leaves to go to the back so there are always 2 on the flight deck. It's not foolproof by any means, but does provide an additional level of safety at minimal trouble and is a good practice no matter what. In addition, having someone else there might have potentially kept this guy off the ledge, or at least had someone who could have tried to open the door.
Last edited by Shep69; 27th Mar 2015 at 03:12.
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If the bean counters are going to continue to put downward pressure of pilots. The net that is needed to hire them will continue to expand. We didn't have this type of problem 30 years ago. The need to have secured doors will no longer be required. Why, the killer will already be at the controls. You can only push and push.
Ungwenched greed is a evil and corrupting trait.
If you doubt it. Just open your eyes and look around.
Ungwenched greed is a evil and corrupting trait.
If you doubt it. Just open your eyes and look around.
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Why play into the airlines hands? Perfect opportunity for pilot unions around the world to rally for 3-crew flight decks again. Can be argued its a safety requirement and can be argued there are untold training benefits for the 3rd seater. Putting an F/A on the flight deck when required is at best a feel-good stopgap measure, and essentially useless.
The race to the bottom has to be reversed at some point. We can't just remain passive observers to the bloody wreckage that spineless bureaucrats are inflicting upon us.
The race to the bottom has to be reversed at some point. We can't just remain passive observers to the bloody wreckage that spineless bureaucrats are inflicting upon us.
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Questions being asked on the main thread...
*** crickets chirping ***
Who sets the impossible rosters, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who sets the impossible terms and conditions, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who decided to do away with company ab-initio training, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who thought it would be a good idea to saddle beginners with €150k of debt, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who let 200hr TT pilots fly a big jet, having done 30 minutes of stalling and spinning, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who sets the impossible terms and conditions, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who decided to do away with company ab-initio training, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who thought it would be a good idea to saddle beginners with €150k of debt, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who let 200hr TT pilots fly a big jet, having done 30 minutes of stalling and spinning, and which authority let them get away with it?