References for some HK ops questions
Thread Starter
References for some HK ops questions
For a while now I have been meaning to ask a few questions regarding ATC ops at Hong Kong.
I can’t find any documentation explaining the answers to my questions, so I hope some of you can point me in the right direction.
1. During push back, ATC instruct a pushback “Colour Red” “Colour Green” or “Colour Blue”. What does this mean and any idea where I could find a reference to it?
2. On departure, the Jeppesen Ocean 2A RNAV states in an information box “Initial climb clearance 5000’. EXPECT further climb when instructed by ATC”.
No where else on the chart is there a ref to 5000’ being a limiting altitude. The FMGEC on our aircraft has 5000’ as a pre loaded constraint. When airborne, ATC often instruct “climb to (lets say 7000’) unrestricted.”
Why do ATC use the term “unrestricted’ when clearing the aircraft to a higher (above 5000’) altitude? There are no constraints on the chart, and clearing you from one altitude (in this case the initial 5000’ clearance) to a different altitude that is not subject to any SID constraints, seems confusing. What is the restriction they are asking us to ignore?
3. The Jeppesen ILS or LOC Rwy 25R chart, shows a note at TD, stating “Leave at or above 8000’ or by ATC”
When the BETTY2B STAR is loaded, the FMGEC in our aircraft puts an 8000’ constraint at TD. I was cleared to (I think 5000’) and queried the constraint at TD (8000’). I was told by ATC that the “leave TD at or above 8000’” is only when the aircraft is holding at TD, not when tracking for the ILS via TD.
It seems that the note does refer to the holding pattern, however, a number of crew read that note differently.
Does anyone have a reference to whether the 8000’ constraint is a holding constraint, or a crossing constraint?
4. The final question for now..
During descent, ATC often say (the exact wording eludes me now) “make speed 230kts on transition“ Given that this speed is asked during descent from cruise to an altitude above transition level, I have always understood it to mean the MACH/IAS transition, i.e., slow to 230kts when leaving the Mach crossover.
Some confusion arose the other day with a new pilot, took it to mean slow to 230kts when passing transition level (despite the next cleared altitude being way ABOVE transition level).
Again, I was hoping for a definitive answer and if possible a reference for it.
Thanks for your help.
Coolnames
I can’t find any documentation explaining the answers to my questions, so I hope some of you can point me in the right direction.
1. During push back, ATC instruct a pushback “Colour Red” “Colour Green” or “Colour Blue”. What does this mean and any idea where I could find a reference to it?
2. On departure, the Jeppesen Ocean 2A RNAV states in an information box “Initial climb clearance 5000’. EXPECT further climb when instructed by ATC”.
No where else on the chart is there a ref to 5000’ being a limiting altitude. The FMGEC on our aircraft has 5000’ as a pre loaded constraint. When airborne, ATC often instruct “climb to (lets say 7000’) unrestricted.”
Why do ATC use the term “unrestricted’ when clearing the aircraft to a higher (above 5000’) altitude? There are no constraints on the chart, and clearing you from one altitude (in this case the initial 5000’ clearance) to a different altitude that is not subject to any SID constraints, seems confusing. What is the restriction they are asking us to ignore?
3. The Jeppesen ILS or LOC Rwy 25R chart, shows a note at TD, stating “Leave at or above 8000’ or by ATC”
When the BETTY2B STAR is loaded, the FMGEC in our aircraft puts an 8000’ constraint at TD. I was cleared to (I think 5000’) and queried the constraint at TD (8000’). I was told by ATC that the “leave TD at or above 8000’” is only when the aircraft is holding at TD, not when tracking for the ILS via TD.
It seems that the note does refer to the holding pattern, however, a number of crew read that note differently.
Does anyone have a reference to whether the 8000’ constraint is a holding constraint, or a crossing constraint?
4. The final question for now..
During descent, ATC often say (the exact wording eludes me now) “make speed 230kts on transition“ Given that this speed is asked during descent from cruise to an altitude above transition level, I have always understood it to mean the MACH/IAS transition, i.e., slow to 230kts when leaving the Mach crossover.
Some confusion arose the other day with a new pilot, took it to mean slow to 230kts when passing transition level (despite the next cleared altitude being way ABOVE transition level).
Again, I was hoping for a definitive answer and if possible a reference for it.
Thanks for your help.
Coolnames
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hong Kong Air Traffic Control and go to the AIP > Aerodromes section for a depiction of the pushback, SID and IAP requirements as published by the HKCAD.
If you want to check the pushback direction the tug driver will turn (direction for the tail), there are small appropriately coloured arrows painted on the hardstand beside the nose wheel stop lines. They are somewhat faded and become visible from the cockpit after you've moved backwards a couple of metres.
If you want to check the pushback direction the tug driver will turn (direction for the tail), there are small appropriately coloured arrows painted on the hardstand beside the nose wheel stop lines. They are somewhat faded and become visible from the cockpit after you've moved backwards a couple of metres.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Good questions, often asked, therefore worthy of clarity.
BekolBlockage is our resident ATCO here, hopefully he can come and definitively pad it out for you. Otherwise, here's my few penneth..
1. As Ex Douglas has said, the pushback procedures by colour are depicted in the AIP and navtech charts, but not on the Jep charts.
2. It is confusing, because the constraint by the AIP is 5000 or below at the first point after departure. The FMS databases are now up to speed but again, the Jep chart isn't. Hence the term 'unrestricted' being used (correctly).
3. It is a crossing constraint. You'll likely be cleared to descend "unrestricted" to an altitude lower than 8000 during less busy times. Otherwise the 8000 is for separation from outbound traffic. Be aware if you're in a slippery jet, you're right on profile at 8000/TD. If you're at 250kts, you may wish to pay a bit of advanced notice to slowing down and configuring. Plenty have fallen into the trap.
4. You're right, it MACH/IAS crossover transition.
BekolBlockage is our resident ATCO here, hopefully he can come and definitively pad it out for you. Otherwise, here's my few penneth..
1. As Ex Douglas has said, the pushback procedures by colour are depicted in the AIP and navtech charts, but not on the Jep charts.
2. It is confusing, because the constraint by the AIP is 5000 or below at the first point after departure. The FMS databases are now up to speed but again, the Jep chart isn't. Hence the term 'unrestricted' being used (correctly).
3. It is a crossing constraint. You'll likely be cleared to descend "unrestricted" to an altitude lower than 8000 during less busy times. Otherwise the 8000 is for separation from outbound traffic. Be aware if you're in a slippery jet, you're right on profile at 8000/TD. If you're at 250kts, you may wish to pay a bit of advanced notice to slowing down and configuring. Plenty have fallen into the trap.
4. You're right, it MACH/IAS crossover transition.
1. During push back, ATC instruct a pushback “Colour Red” “Colour Green” or “Colour Blue”. What does this mean and any idea where I could find a reference to it?
HK AIP VHHH AD2.22
See para 1.9
AD2-99A Aircraft Pushback Red Procedure
AD2-99B Aircraft Pushback Blue Procedure
AD2-99C Aircraft Pushback Green Procedure
2. Why do ATC use the term “unrestricted’ when clearing the aircraft to a higher (above 5000’) altitude?
3. Does anyone have a reference to whether the 8000’ constraint is a holding constraint, or a crossing constraint?
The ILS chart published in the AIP shows that the initial approach altitude is 8000 or 'as directed by ATC'. I don't have a reference, but the 8000 at TD is only used where holding is required, or for radio failures. In practice it is rarely, if ever, required. ATC usually clears aircraft to descend to 6000 initially, then 4500.
4. Given that this speed is asked during descent from cruise to an altitude above transition level, I have always understood it to mean the MACH/IAS transition, i.e., slow to 230kts when leaving the Mach crossover.
CAP413 Ch3 P5
Last edited by BuzzBox; 5th Aug 2014 at 09:49.
There is a noise abatement procedure that requires a continuous descent approach from 32nm from 8000ft or higher for arrivals to 25L/R between 1501 and 2300 UTC. My understanding is that ATC's preference in that case is to provide radar vectors to intercept the LOC outside LOTUS (for 25L) or RIVER (for 25R). That said, I guess if they cleared the aircraft for a procedural approach from TD during the night period, then they might not clear it below 8000ft until TD.
VHHH AD 2.21 Noise Abatement Procedures
VHHH AD 2.21 Noise Abatement Procedures
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: nowhere
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A different question from an out of towner. On initial contact with Hong Kong ATC when crossing the FIR boundary, I always give our squawk code. Why? Because everyone else does and I know that if I don't I will be asked for it anyways.
I had a management pilot tell me that I should not do this because it is not written down anywhere to do so. All arguments failed to convince.
Is this procedure actually written down or is it just done because we know it will reduce radio transmissions.
I had a management pilot tell me that I should not do this because it is not written down anywhere to do so. All arguments failed to convince.
Is this procedure actually written down or is it just done because we know it will reduce radio transmissions.
There isn't a strict requirement, but if you don't give your squawk code on first contact you will be asked, so why not? As you said, it cuts the chatter and saves everybody's time.
SpaceRanger
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Samsonite
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Push red is generally towards Wan Chai, red light district
Push blue is generally towards the ocean, which is ideally blue
Push green - well, not sure, maybe that is direction of the golf club?
Push blue is generally towards the ocean, which is ideally blue
Push green - well, not sure, maybe that is direction of the golf club?
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Gate 69
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Push back colours
Push Red will be left wing to the terminal. Push Blue will be right wing to the terminal. Push (and tow forward) Green will depend on where you are parked. Like previously stated it is to ensure you don't blow someone/something away in the nearby bay when you taxi away. Now red to the left makes sense, I just don't know why they didn't make it green to the right, and blue the push and tow. Maybe I'm being too logical.
