The AOA is falling apart
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This new Gen Sec had better come out swinging. What he did at US Airways was unforgivable. Hey CB, if you think you are going to bring that drama and pansi-footing here, hit the road jack. These upcoming negotiations are far too important for the likes of you to wrench it up.
Rant off.
Rant off.
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The AOA is an old boys club who are 100% in line with the company. Did we get a say on who became the Gen Sec? No we never and we ponder why things are going to hell in a hand basket!
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Pardon my ignorance, but as we all know, communication and shared knowledge of the inner workings of the AOA is not exactly forthcoming information.
What exactly does the GenSec do, and how responsible is he in leading the upcoming fun and games?
As far as I could tell, DD (aside from being the ultimate signature) seemed to be leading us only in theory. In practice, the Chairman, the NC and the GC seem to be the ones leading and working for us. I understand that he may be 'ultimately responsible' for what changes do occur, but as far as I can see, others thrash it out with the company, do the negotiations and create the results which are then to be ratified. How far off the mark am I? I'm genuinely interested, so again, pardon my ignorance.
I'm astonished that this new guy is allowed anywhere near any union leadership, given his comically atrocious track record in similar roles. However, I'm just after clarity on his role over the chairman and more 'active' positions in the union hierarchy.
What exactly does the GenSec do, and how responsible is he in leading the upcoming fun and games?
As far as I could tell, DD (aside from being the ultimate signature) seemed to be leading us only in theory. In practice, the Chairman, the NC and the GC seem to be the ones leading and working for us. I understand that he may be 'ultimately responsible' for what changes do occur, but as far as I can see, others thrash it out with the company, do the negotiations and create the results which are then to be ratified. How far off the mark am I? I'm genuinely interested, so again, pardon my ignorance.
I'm astonished that this new guy is allowed anywhere near any union leadership, given his comically atrocious track record in similar roles. However, I'm just after clarity on his role over the chairman and more 'active' positions in the union hierarchy.
Etops240,
AOA website after logon, top left corner, "your association", "AOA staff", "industrial"...you can find the job description there...
Judging by some of the flight deck talk and some forum posts I gather this part of the website does not get visited very often...
What exactly does the GenSec do?
AOA website after logon, top left corner, "your association", "AOA staff", "industrial"...you can find the job description there...
Judging by some of the flight deck talk and some forum posts I gather this part of the website does not get visited very often...
Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 26th Dec 2013 at 13:09.
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AQIS Boigu
Thanks for that.
It doesn't give a whole lot away, however.
Now, playing Devil's Advocate;
For what it's worth, he doesn't look like he's the right man for the job. The AOA forums outline prior first hand experiences with him, which are, frankly, diabolical.
But; (and I am no way being an apologist of his appointment, I'm very concerned) undoubtedly he has experience. Naturally, any ALPA experienced union folk of the last 20 years have horrific records. Perhaps we should be looking elsewhere, rather than the ALPA boys club. This much is abundantly clear from how the US aviation industry has deteriorated. Nowadays though, they seem to have turned a corner. Major airlines are making decent profits, and lost ground is being covered by the pilot groups (at the major level).
So, my question would be - given that Cathay has a bright future, is stable, churns out good results, etc. do we think that our new leader will capitalise on that in the same way as current US pilot unions are doing?
In other words, do we think that he made such concessions back then because US Airways was, at the time, in financial ruin, and enormous changes had to be made accross the board for their continued survival?
Obviously Cathay is financially very healthy, and it's prospects are very bright considering the emerging global economic climate, and the role of Asia going forward.
I'm obviously very concerned, and again, I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just wondering whether it is possible to compare his past leadership results with his situation here. I'm not totally clued up on the past, but representing a labour group aboard a sinking ship doesn't seem comparable to resembling a labour group within a successful company. Again, from a short précis on the responsibilities of the GenSec, I still remain of the opinion that the real progress gets made by our Chairman, the NC and GC. Among which we have some very experienced and capable hands.
I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone that he's the right man for the job. I certainly don't know that he is, I'm just after a bit of discussion and opinion. Particularly from those who've been victim to his leadership, and those who've experience with union leadership - insights would be appreciated.
It doesn't give a whole lot away, however.
Now, playing Devil's Advocate;
For what it's worth, he doesn't look like he's the right man for the job. The AOA forums outline prior first hand experiences with him, which are, frankly, diabolical.
But; (and I am no way being an apologist of his appointment, I'm very concerned) undoubtedly he has experience. Naturally, any ALPA experienced union folk of the last 20 years have horrific records. Perhaps we should be looking elsewhere, rather than the ALPA boys club. This much is abundantly clear from how the US aviation industry has deteriorated. Nowadays though, they seem to have turned a corner. Major airlines are making decent profits, and lost ground is being covered by the pilot groups (at the major level).
So, my question would be - given that Cathay has a bright future, is stable, churns out good results, etc. do we think that our new leader will capitalise on that in the same way as current US pilot unions are doing?
In other words, do we think that he made such concessions back then because US Airways was, at the time, in financial ruin, and enormous changes had to be made accross the board for their continued survival?
Obviously Cathay is financially very healthy, and it's prospects are very bright considering the emerging global economic climate, and the role of Asia going forward.
I'm obviously very concerned, and again, I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just wondering whether it is possible to compare his past leadership results with his situation here. I'm not totally clued up on the past, but representing a labour group aboard a sinking ship doesn't seem comparable to resembling a labour group within a successful company. Again, from a short précis on the responsibilities of the GenSec, I still remain of the opinion that the real progress gets made by our Chairman, the NC and GC. Among which we have some very experienced and capable hands.
I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone that he's the right man for the job. I certainly don't know that he is, I'm just after a bit of discussion and opinion. Particularly from those who've been victim to his leadership, and those who've experience with union leadership - insights would be appreciated.
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The GS is also like a Spiritual Leader without the religious connotations. He guides and inspires the senior GC members to formulate policy or direction and having the wrong person can have some very dire consequences.
DD was not a positive influence! Only time will tell if the new guy is the same or worse!
DD was not a positive influence! Only time will tell if the new guy is the same or worse!
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The old guard on the GC has to go or nothing will change. The will give and give and give. The head of the NC is an equally bad choice as is the new Gen Sec.
If the GC continue this path only a "no confidence motion" might safe us. GdlC, PV, PW and RF should find another hobby then being on the GC and NC.
If the GC continue this path only a "no confidence motion" might safe us. GdlC, PV, PW and RF should find another hobby then being on the GC and NC.
PW was only interested in RA65 since it affected him personally - how can you "forget" to put in a 25 year housing deal in writing...
I do have great faith in the next generation of the NC such as BB and JL...
I do have great faith in the next generation of the NC such as BB and JL...
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PW clearly is mgt. no 25 year housing... In fact we are still talking about it 6years later. Cos 08. Cos 08. cos 08. defo onto passenger fleet on bases not in accordance with faca and contract, as well as company policy. out of seniority everything. Lower Cos 08 payscale starting last week for USAB officers (I know, if I signed it (clicked it) i should have known better). Menial pay raises that have not halved inflation each year (ie paycut). Where was contract compliance or MSS? Did we roll over? No we just stayed bent down.
Hopefully we grow some balls! Lets hire a real HK lawyer for our GS. Right now the company is really laughing at us.
Hopefully we grow some balls! Lets hire a real HK lawyer for our GS. Right now the company is really laughing at us.
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Well said Curtain, our dues would be much better spent going straight into fighting in the courts. I think you are on to something. I don't know if it will help us get ahead, but I know for certain that it would grind the process to a halt and stop us from loosing ground so quickly.
At this point, as pathetic as it sounds, I am more concerned about hanging on to what we got. Because the AOA leadership we've had up to this point is the one that has seen CoS08 brought in, the death of Expat housing, complete mockery of our scope clause, and they can't even sack-up enough to put us into contract compliance. Something that is pretty much standard operation for most unionised employees worldwide.
At this point, as pathetic as it sounds, I am more concerned about hanging on to what we got. Because the AOA leadership we've had up to this point is the one that has seen CoS08 brought in, the death of Expat housing, complete mockery of our scope clause, and they can't even sack-up enough to put us into contract compliance. Something that is pretty much standard operation for most unionised employees worldwide.
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Why don't you do someabout it
Please take this in the kindest regard but you guys whine and whinge way too much! Action, not words, is what it will take. Don't you have motions to address issues when you don't agree with your so called leadership. Yes, your leadership is truly lacking but you do have the power for change. Start by going into the secret office in TST. Then bombard them with calls and emails. Writing and complaining on here will accomplish nothing.
I think you guys over at Green/HKAOA need a revolution both internally and externally. The question is do you have someone to lead the revolution? A true leader who isn't afraid and knows how to get dirty? Perhaps not? Perhaps he/she is staring you right in the face! That is what you need!
Best of luck, you're going to need it I think.
I think you guys over at Green/HKAOA need a revolution both internally and externally. The question is do you have someone to lead the revolution? A true leader who isn't afraid and knows how to get dirty? Perhaps not? Perhaps he/she is staring you right in the face! That is what you need!
Best of luck, you're going to need it I think.
You guys are so full of it.........unbelievable really.
The courts? Really??????? HK courts!! Ahh that's funny fellas!!
Action??? What ya gunna do? Go on strike?? Sure that'll work just like it did for the 49ers...
Big business control this town, always have and always will.
The sooner you realize this fact and just get on with it the better off you'll be.
I've seen bitching and moaning on a grand scale over 20 years in the Harbor and look where it's got us so far......mmmmmm
The way the World is at the moment if you chaps think the grass is greener on the other side then I respectfully suggest you go to it quickly because from where I sit this is just about the best gig in town at the moment ( unless you are young enough to join a good US or European Legacy Carrier )
So give us all a break and just give it a rest will ya.
I'm sick and tired of all the negative BS I've read in 20 years here, so much bravado and testosterone flying around I think I'll start a Gym.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Rant over.
Back to normal programming.
The courts? Really??????? HK courts!! Ahh that's funny fellas!!
Action??? What ya gunna do? Go on strike?? Sure that'll work just like it did for the 49ers...
Big business control this town, always have and always will.
The sooner you realize this fact and just get on with it the better off you'll be.
I've seen bitching and moaning on a grand scale over 20 years in the Harbor and look where it's got us so far......mmmmmm
The way the World is at the moment if you chaps think the grass is greener on the other side then I respectfully suggest you go to it quickly because from where I sit this is just about the best gig in town at the moment ( unless you are young enough to join a good US or European Legacy Carrier )
So give us all a break and just give it a rest will ya.
I'm sick and tired of all the negative BS I've read in 20 years here, so much bravado and testosterone flying around I think I'll start a Gym.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Rant over.
Back to normal programming.
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Yup, talk about having your head in the sand. 20 years of failure because of a lack of unity!
Times are very slowly changing so keep the pressure on and force a change within the HKAOA.
Times are very slowly changing so keep the pressure on and force a change within the HKAOA.
Hey I've been a loyal AOA member for 20 years, supported the 49ers, been in unofficial contract compliance for 10 years, always voted, attended focus nights, talked to the GC with my ideas and paid my dues through thick and thin.
All good BUT, at the end if the day what do you think our little club can really achieve that CX don't let us have?? They have the CAD in their pocket as well as the Govt and the courts. So you think that taking them to court will work?? How successful have we been in the past in HK courts?? Mmmm
How many guys/girls will go on strike?? Very few
How many guys/girls will go into official CC?? Most but it would only piss off CX
At the end of the day we can only ever hope to try and maintain out cos with the odd pay rise here and there.'Having the AOA helps stop the cos getting even worse but I doubt it will ever get a lot better simply because there is not enough support from the grass roots members.....sad but proven to be true year after year.
If you think I'm being negative, then yes I guess I am but after 20 years of banging our heads against the wall what else could I be??
I've heard all this tough talk before in fact I've done a fair bit myself in the past events, but in spite of all the chest beating we all did what did it achieve?? I remember 49 people being sacked for one.
Two words for you:----DAMAGE CONTROL.
That's all our AOA can do.
All good BUT, at the end if the day what do you think our little club can really achieve that CX don't let us have?? They have the CAD in their pocket as well as the Govt and the courts. So you think that taking them to court will work?? How successful have we been in the past in HK courts?? Mmmm
How many guys/girls will go on strike?? Very few
How many guys/girls will go into official CC?? Most but it would only piss off CX
At the end of the day we can only ever hope to try and maintain out cos with the odd pay rise here and there.'Having the AOA helps stop the cos getting even worse but I doubt it will ever get a lot better simply because there is not enough support from the grass roots members.....sad but proven to be true year after year.
If you think I'm being negative, then yes I guess I am but after 20 years of banging our heads against the wall what else could I be??
I've heard all this tough talk before in fact I've done a fair bit myself in the past events, but in spite of all the chest beating we all did what did it achieve?? I remember 49 people being sacked for one.
Two words for you:----DAMAGE CONTROL.
That's all our AOA can do.
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Totally Cx Crewed
If anyone thinks that the AOA is an independent body, then you should have your medical taken away on the grounds of being unfit mentally. If you think that there is any reason to have a union, again get some loss of license. And if you think things will ever change, well do yourself a favor and just realize that ND was no better the MG or PW. You were all chosen for a reason and well the investigations into the smoking holes will be the only way that the stories will ever come out. Of course at the end of the day you reap what you sow and there maybe only a handful of cx drivers out there who don't deserve what is right around the corner!
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Sully,
Do tell, what is right around the corner? ******* defeatists!! If some of you truly are CX, I am embarrassed to call you "colleagues". It's hard to imagine many of you with but the smooth, soft skin of a baby.
box
Do tell, what is right around the corner? ******* defeatists!! If some of you truly are CX, I am embarrassed to call you "colleagues". It's hard to imagine many of you with but the smooth, soft skin of a baby.
box
Boxjockey------"you're not in Kansas now Dorothy".
I wish we had some of the Unions and Laws of the good ol US of A here in the Harbour but the truth is that we haven't. Probably the EA negotiations in Oz will help a little in this regard by flowing on to HK? Fingers crossed.
I wish we had some of the Unions and Laws of the good ol US of A here in the Harbour but the truth is that we haven't. Probably the EA negotiations in Oz will help a little in this regard by flowing on to HK? Fingers crossed.
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To those of you in in positions.
1.It will always be "war".
2. Remove the thought of "negotiation". You have already lost if you want to negotiate. The ways and means of "negotiating" have been published world wide, and with no rules and laws to uphold settlements, it is a waste of time, especially in HKG.
3. Replace with "interrogation".
4. Remember the rules of "war" and "interrogation".
Read the history.
1.It will always be "war".
2. Remove the thought of "negotiation". You have already lost if you want to negotiate. The ways and means of "negotiating" have been published world wide, and with no rules and laws to uphold settlements, it is a waste of time, especially in HKG.
3. Replace with "interrogation".
4. Remember the rules of "war" and "interrogation".
Read the history.
