Now this is interesting-Dragon Air
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Now this is interesting-Dragon Air
Dragonair pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements.
How about all those S/Os sitting around at CX???
How about all those S/Os sitting around at CX???
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Why integrate? Management have tested the scope clause. KA will get as much expansion as it can train for. Some of it will be over CX routes. If I were a junior CX pilot I would be hoping for a sensible approach by the pilot groups.
Then again, want to be a KA pilot? Go and stay at the new crew hotel in Chengdu.
Then again, want to be a KA pilot? Go and stay at the new crew hotel in Chengdu.
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HKAOA/DPA?
I would whole heartedly support a merging of the DPA with The HKAOA, which is a different issue to the one here I know but humor me. The strengths of the 2 combined Associations are very attractive. HKAOA would bring to the merger a strong financial position, international and technical expertise while the DPA would bring local Hong Kong political skills and strong industrial capabilities. The HKAOA has been left with a vastly different and some would say diminished stature after the reorganization and creation of AOA Aus, to say nothing of the AOA Canada debacle. Maybe it's time to bring all the Pilots based in Hong Kong working for the Cathay Pacific Airways Group under 1 representative umbrella? Strength in numbers works!
Bang
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HKAOA/DPA?
Wasn't this tried out 3 or 4 years ago?
If my old memory is right, DPA essentially wanted to merge the 2 seniority lists on a straight date of joining basis and the HKAOA response (quite right too) was NO, all on existing seniority lists stayed where they were but pick a date in the future to combine the lists and that might work. DPA said NO to that idea.
If my old memory is right, DPA essentially wanted to merge the 2 seniority lists on a straight date of joining basis and the HKAOA response (quite right too) was NO, all on existing seniority lists stayed where they were but pick a date in the future to combine the lists and that might work. DPA said NO to that idea.
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You could still quite easily institute a "Y" system of seniority even now. This would make no difference to the senior guys but would certainly open greater opportunity for the junior guys in future. If it had of been done when CX first bought KA back in 07 you would have had your first CX guys coming up for A320 command now. Seems like a missed opportunity for both groups to benefit.
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I certainly think the seniority issue is something that could quite easily be overcome but it is important to differentiate between a self-actualized HKAOA/DPA seniority integration and what the CX/KA management would recognize. There would be no guarantee that CX/KA management would adhere to any proposed seniority list that the combined Associations would come up with.
This may have been talked about before - Amused - but things have changed, particularly for the HKAOA and I believe now would be a good time to look at the issue again. Not that the HKAOA is weak (see the 94% acceptance vote for contract compliance recently) but it is smaller in numbers now and size does matter here. AOA Aus and AOA Canada having their own associations and industrial limitation issues, etc all be them under the EXCO banner.
What I am talking about is a unified Association of Hong Kong based Pilots, who work for the Cathay Pacific Airways Group and who tackle the issues with CX/KA management as they pertain to them in Hong Kong.
I have friends who work at both airlines. I saw a 747 Pilot's roster the other day that was worse, in terms of days off, than a very hard-working 320 Pilot for instance, just throwing that one out there.
Strength in numbers!
Bang
This may have been talked about before - Amused - but things have changed, particularly for the HKAOA and I believe now would be a good time to look at the issue again. Not that the HKAOA is weak (see the 94% acceptance vote for contract compliance recently) but it is smaller in numbers now and size does matter here. AOA Aus and AOA Canada having their own associations and industrial limitation issues, etc all be them under the EXCO banner.
What I am talking about is a unified Association of Hong Kong based Pilots, who work for the Cathay Pacific Airways Group and who tackle the issues with CX/KA management as they pertain to them in Hong Kong.
I have friends who work at both airlines. I saw a 747 Pilot's roster the other day that was worse, in terms of days off, than a very hard-working 320 Pilot for instance, just throwing that one out there.
Strength in numbers!
Bang
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giggerty said;
" If it had of been done when CX first bought KA back in 07 you would have had your first CX guys coming up for A320 command now. Seems like a missed opportunity for both groups to benefit."
Yes, but what is the benefit to the CX guys?
" If it had of been done when CX first bought KA back in 07 you would have had your first CX guys coming up for A320 command now. Seems like a missed opportunity for both groups to benefit."
Yes, but what is the benefit to the CX guys?
Yes, but what is the benefit to the CX guys?
I thought one avenue they were looking at was providing 2 letters, 12 weeks notice from KA, and a new job starting on the 1st day of the 13th week with CX. Naturally on current conditions, and position joining the seniority list in accordance with the HKG ordnance, i.e. not date, rank, or experience based, by random lottery (the way CX does it these days).
The savings in terms of housing, leave, and roistering flexibility apparently is astonishing.
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Although this thread went a bit astray, I have to say I am a bit surprised by the CX pilots protectionism. I know tons of CX guys and correct if I am wrong but your seniority list has Captains near the bottom as does Canada AND Australia? Also, out of seniority freighter captains on different T's and CS?
You should probably get your own house in order before dictating to others how it should be no? I for one am happy to stay separate. I know what has happened to my former colleagues that wound up over at the great CX. And don't even make me mention the 49ers. Oops!
You should probably get your own house in order before dictating to others how it should be no? I for one am happy to stay separate. I know what has happened to my former colleagues that wound up over at the great CX. And don't even make me mention the 49ers. Oops!
Yes, but what is the benefit to the CX guys?
You dont think integrating list's could shorten command times, add flexibility to rostering for some and increase productivity across the CX and KA fleets?
Last edited by KABOY; 23rd Oct 2013 at 11:55.
Didacts and Narpets,
The DPA and HKAOA have no say on who and how CX employ people. Everyone new to CX has joined at the bottom regardless of rank. if you spent 20 years in CX, moved to Oasis, and then back, you start again at the bottom. It has happened. The Dragonair freighter guys also started at the bottom.
Last I heard there were over 30 different contracts about, this may have streamlined a little with some bases going to new contracts, and others being shut down. In any case the list reflects when a person joined CX, not how long they have worked for them. For example some SOs worked on 3 year contracts before joining the CX list.
KABOY,
Time to command is around 12 years at present. CX already has plenty of "flexibility to rostering".
The DPA and HKAOA have no say on who and how CX employ people. Everyone new to CX has joined at the bottom regardless of rank. if you spent 20 years in CX, moved to Oasis, and then back, you start again at the bottom. It has happened. The Dragonair freighter guys also started at the bottom.
Last I heard there were over 30 different contracts about, this may have streamlined a little with some bases going to new contracts, and others being shut down. In any case the list reflects when a person joined CX, not how long they have worked for them. For example some SOs worked on 3 year contracts before joining the CX list.
KABOY,
Time to command is around 12 years at present. CX already has plenty of "flexibility to rostering".
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Dragonair pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. Looked at this...very short of Capts and A/C are sitting on the ramp....no pilots.
Why don't they hire DEC like almost everyone else does Asia?
Why don't they hire DEC like almost everyone else does Asia?
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I was being sarcastic. For all but a handful of CX pilots, an integration with KA holds no attraction, but lots of negatives.
The so called "positive" of a 320 Command is attractive to only a few and even then is being "oversold" by those who stand to gain the most. Be under no illusion, if a CX pilot wanted to command a 320, he/she woud have applied to KA and they are also wise enough to know that they would be on the 320 a loooong time.
There are lots of benefits to KA pilots, some benefits to the group, but it scores a zero on the interest scale for the bulk of CX Pilots; it's a non-story.
The so called "positive" of a 320 Command is attractive to only a few and even then is being "oversold" by those who stand to gain the most. Be under no illusion, if a CX pilot wanted to command a 320, he/she woud have applied to KA and they are also wise enough to know that they would be on the 320 a loooong time.
There are lots of benefits to KA pilots, some benefits to the group, but it scores a zero on the interest scale for the bulk of CX Pilots; it's a non-story.
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things have changed, particularly for the HKAOA
Bang
Yes things have changed. HKAOA don't seem to realise that they cannot forever rule the roost over the Aussies and Canadians, who as you say have different industrial limitations now. There's also a question over all based pilots as to whether HKAOA is the right body to represent them. Over 40% of all CX pilots are based now and if Crofts' decision in the UK means anything surely it is that UK based pilots come under UK law and not HKG. Would they be better off in BALPA? What about our US based guys?
How will the HKAOA get on with DPA if they can't even get on with AOA Canada - and no it's not just the Canadians at fault. Will it be AOA Australia next if they don't tow the HKAOA line?
Having said the above, I do believe that HKAOA and DPA should be working together on many issues. Management won't like it so there's a good reason to do it.
Yes things have changed. HKAOA don't seem to realise that they cannot forever rule the roost over the Aussies and Canadians, who as you say have different industrial limitations now. There's also a question over all based pilots as to whether HKAOA is the right body to represent them. Over 40% of all CX pilots are based now and if Crofts' decision in the UK means anything surely it is that UK based pilots come under UK law and not HKG. Would they be better off in BALPA? What about our US based guys?
How will the HKAOA get on with DPA if they can't even get on with AOA Canada - and no it's not just the Canadians at fault. Will it be AOA Australia next if they don't tow the HKAOA line?
Having said the above, I do believe that HKAOA and DPA should be working together on many issues. Management won't like it so there's a good reason to do it.
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I am thankful to the insightful response to my suggestion. There seems to be however, a misconception that the HKAOA some how has had some control over the the abysmal state of the various packages offered/imposed to whole tranches of their members. the industrial state of play is not something that would pass muster anywhere else...except for maybe some of the Mid-East carriers...working for the man, etc.
This is the result of many factors not the least of which are as follows:
A small Association with a widely disparate membership
A belligerent, confrontational, single minded and results driven management
Employer friendly labour law
The seeming Cathay "Luck"
An industrially naive Pilot body
etc etc etc etc.... this topic alone would fill many pages!
My point here is that we have what we have because of what we have allowed as an Association.
If we had had a larger Association in past times who were unified and willing to stick up for each other who in no uncertain terms, would have resisted the venal treatment we have received in the past, things would have been different....what I am suggesting is to create that unified and strong Association before we, as an employee body working for the Cathay group in Hong Kong, are subjected to the next barrage...it's coming to all of us, believe me (think housing, medical benefits, salaries, etc, etc.). Just imagine the even hint of a threat of all the green/red and white aircraft moving slowly or stopping completely.
Amused, I take your point vis a vis the recent debacles involving AOA Canada and any potential missteps that could involve AOA Aus in the future. Surely the HKAOA membership based in the UK and the US present multi-faceted issues. But I think now, with the HKAOA Gen Sec about to be replaced, and a desire to learn from past mistakes on the part of the HKAOA, it maybe time to look to bringing us all under a unified umbrella and presenting that as a viable counter force to what I believe is inevitable for all of us employed in Hong Kong.
Maybe I'm being naive but I strongly believeand I am convinced that there is...
Strength in numbers!
Bang
This is the result of many factors not the least of which are as follows:
A small Association with a widely disparate membership
A belligerent, confrontational, single minded and results driven management
Employer friendly labour law
The seeming Cathay "Luck"
An industrially naive Pilot body
etc etc etc etc.... this topic alone would fill many pages!
My point here is that we have what we have because of what we have allowed as an Association.
If we had had a larger Association in past times who were unified and willing to stick up for each other who in no uncertain terms, would have resisted the venal treatment we have received in the past, things would have been different....what I am suggesting is to create that unified and strong Association before we, as an employee body working for the Cathay group in Hong Kong, are subjected to the next barrage...it's coming to all of us, believe me (think housing, medical benefits, salaries, etc, etc.). Just imagine the even hint of a threat of all the green/red and white aircraft moving slowly or stopping completely.
Amused, I take your point vis a vis the recent debacles involving AOA Canada and any potential missteps that could involve AOA Aus in the future. Surely the HKAOA membership based in the UK and the US present multi-faceted issues. But I think now, with the HKAOA Gen Sec about to be replaced, and a desire to learn from past mistakes on the part of the HKAOA, it maybe time to look to bringing us all under a unified umbrella and presenting that as a viable counter force to what I believe is inevitable for all of us employed in Hong Kong.
Maybe I'm being naive but I strongly believeand I am convinced that there is...
Strength in numbers!
Bang