View Poll Results: Is the IFALPA/HKAOA Recuitment Ban Fair?
Yes, It is Fair
74
26.52%
Only Fair if an Upgrade Ban is included
122
43.73%
No, It Is Not Fair
83
29.75%
Voters: 279. This poll is closed
Is the IFALPA/HKAOA Cathay recuitment ban fair?
Thread Starter
Is the IFALPA/HKAOA Cathay recuitment ban fair?
Have your say! Union bans only work if most pepople support them. Do you?
Join Date: May 2001
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You only have to look at the very long history of this dispute to see that the actions by Cathay management are all part of a classic 'union busting' campaign. The dice are all loaded in the managements favour. The recruitment ban is one of the very few weapons that the guys have and we should support it and the '49 ers' as much as we possibly can.
Remember, it could be you and your company next!
Remember, it could be you and your company next!
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Of course it's classic union busting, and nearly always possible in HKG due to the local laws.....a management paradise from a labor relations standpoint.
And, the AOA will never learn......it is (more or less) a contract airline, like it or not.
Tough beans.
And, the AOA will never learn......it is (more or less) a contract airline, like it or not.
Tough beans.
Jeeeeeeez Ironbutt and 411......whaddya you guys do all day?
Do you sit foaming at the mouth over the computer, rabidly waiting for someone else to post something on Fragrant Harbour so you can hop in and tell the AoA they are finished.
A little manic don't you think?
Do you sit foaming at the mouth over the computer, rabidly waiting for someone else to post something on Fragrant Harbour so you can hop in and tell the AoA they are finished.
A little manic don't you think?
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Yes the ban is fair, but…
The management is laughing because they are presently attracting the same king of spineless “yes men” as themselves. The "stand up" guys are knocking it back, but they can always go to Emirates.
Did I hear: “But I don’t have a job and I have a mortgage”
Just do as you would if you were to accept the CX job. Sell your house and move to a 700 Sq. foot flat (like one that you would get on a CX S/O housing allowance), only do it in your home country instead. You will be able to work and live as comfortably as most people do while you wait for the dust to settle at CX. More importantly you will be able to keep your professional reputation intact. Once you lose it, it’s for life. Someone I know is a Lorenzo Continental Scab from the eighties and he still pays for his mistake.
The management is laughing because they are presently attracting the same king of spineless “yes men” as themselves. The "stand up" guys are knocking it back, but they can always go to Emirates.
Did I hear: “But I don’t have a job and I have a mortgage”
Just do as you would if you were to accept the CX job. Sell your house and move to a 700 Sq. foot flat (like one that you would get on a CX S/O housing allowance), only do it in your home country instead. You will be able to work and live as comfortably as most people do while you wait for the dust to settle at CX. More importantly you will be able to keep your professional reputation intact. Once you lose it, it’s for life. Someone I know is a Lorenzo Continental Scab from the eighties and he still pays for his mistake.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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True story..two blokes in '89 walk the walk of the dispute....the younger fellow gets hired at cx mainline because he "fits the mould"...later the old skipper who trained him gets hired at ASL because, while he's a pilot, he's "freighter quality"...the young bloke now labels the old skipper a "scab"...the old skipper quits cx in disgust(got quitted by a fellow 89'er)....I had the priviledge of serving as the "old skipper's" f.o. for many hours..the quintessential professional he was..what have we come to here folks? what a sad situation indeed?!?....we are our own worst enemy.....for sure.
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Have a look over the old vcd's and tell me if you heard the same thing said about the 49'ers that i have heard. They will not stand in the way of any negotiation in the future. Well funny that we have so far had one serious offer put to the committee and yet it was not passed on to the membership, is this not only immoral and unjust but bordering on illegal. If it were 1st degree murder and the D.A was offering manslaughter, would you want to be told that the offer was made or just be told they offered us ZERO!
food for thought.
food for thought.
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ironbutt
If the old skipper quits in disgust that's his perogative, but if he quits because the young guy calls him a scab, he's never played aussie rules!
Keep the faith:]
If the old skipper quits in disgust that's his perogative, but if he quits because the young guy calls him a scab, he's never played aussie rules!
Keep the faith:]
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'Union Busting', looks like it.....
But if you are going to talk about support?
Then what about all the people that have shown their support by accepting promotions etc etc etc.....
Seems odd doesnt it...
If you accept a position with this airline as a S/O, then you are a 'SCAB' because you have taken the position of a sacked Captain, which is NOT OK!
BUT if you are an existing F/O, it is ok to fill the vacant slot left by the sacked captain by filling the vacant slot and in turn helping out the company! which is OK!
Union busting tactics or not by the company, I cant help but think that the hire freeze is ' a tad hypocritical'!!!!!
But if you are going to talk about support?
Then what about all the people that have shown their support by accepting promotions etc etc etc.....
Seems odd doesnt it...
If you accept a position with this airline as a S/O, then you are a 'SCAB' because you have taken the position of a sacked Captain, which is NOT OK!
BUT if you are an existing F/O, it is ok to fill the vacant slot left by the sacked captain by filling the vacant slot and in turn helping out the company! which is OK!
Union busting tactics or not by the company, I cant help but think that the hire freeze is ' a tad hypocritical'!!!!!
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..."a tad hypocritical"...as in keep the new guys out while the upgraders scoop up the gravy.
As this vignette plays out expect the AOA to look even more foolish than they already do, if this is indeed possible.
As this vignette plays out expect the AOA to look even more foolish than they already do, if this is indeed possible.
Join Date: May 2002
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All this talk of union busting is laughable. The company doesn't have to employ any union busting tactics ... the union members are doing it all by themselves!
Hopefully, the upcoming election will result in someone with common sense and objectivity providing some 'reasoned' leadership to this diminishing group.
Union busting ... right!!!!!
Hopefully, the upcoming election will result in someone with common sense and objectivity providing some 'reasoned' leadership to this diminishing group.
Union busting ... right!!!!!
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Isn't the definition of a scab a person (or more accurately, a spinless bit of scum) who takes another mans (or womans) job while that other person is either locked out or on strike?
Are the Cathay pilots on strike? No.
Are they locked out? No.
How then can people who join Cathay now be regarded as scabs? They are not taking the jobs of locked out or striking workers.
The hiring ban is doing little to deter people from joining Cathay and those that it does deter are the kind of people that the Union needs on its side, while the less scrupulous will join anyway.
I sympathise with the sacked Cathay pilots, but I think the fact that other Cathay pilots have accepted upgrades to fill the slots has now made the sacked pilots' fight to get their jobs back next to impossible. Good luck.
Are the Cathay pilots on strike? No.
Are they locked out? No.
How then can people who join Cathay now be regarded as scabs? They are not taking the jobs of locked out or striking workers.
The hiring ban is doing little to deter people from joining Cathay and those that it does deter are the kind of people that the Union needs on its side, while the less scrupulous will join anyway.
I sympathise with the sacked Cathay pilots, but I think the fact that other Cathay pilots have accepted upgrades to fill the slots has now made the sacked pilots' fight to get their jobs back next to impossible. Good luck.
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Unfortunately for those concerned it is naive to think that pilots will be discouraged from joining CX.
In my experience most Pilots would just about sell their own mothers for a dollar, it's all about me, me, me.
Perhaps we should accept the fact that all vacancies will be filled and concentrate on trying to gain the support of the new recruits.
Calling people disgusting names is counterproductive and unprofessional.
The new hires will come soon enough and badmouthing them will only erode support from them and even from currrent employees
In my experience most Pilots would just about sell their own mothers for a dollar, it's all about me, me, me.
Perhaps we should accept the fact that all vacancies will be filled and concentrate on trying to gain the support of the new recruits.
Calling people disgusting names is counterproductive and unprofessional.
The new hires will come soon enough and badmouthing them will only erode support from them and even from currrent employees
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The question has to be asked, "Which group is seen as the greater of the two threats?" The unemployed ex-airline pilot, or G.A. pilot getting (perhaps) his only shot at airlines, both with young families to support - OR, the Training Captains at CX who process these guys, and later the crews who fly with them?
The "Recruitment Ban" would have some meaning if CX were trying to replace existing crews with direct entry Captains (and perhaps, F/O's capable of being upgraded in a short period) - again, the training would need to be done by current CX TC's.
I don't see Second Officers, nor brand new F/O's for that matter, as a threat to the incumbent pilots - EXCEPT, as has been pointed out by others, as a dilution to the percentage of pilots represented by the AOA.
Like it or not, the spotlight DOES fall directly onto the Training Captains simply because the Second Officer positions WILL be filled.
If the Training Captains are not willing to take some action (or INaction), then are the crews rostered to fly with these newly trained S/O's willing to refuse to fly with them?
The "Recruitment Ban" has been issued - are the CX pilots willing to follow that ban and its further implications RIGHT THROUGH?
If not, then a review is in order, I believe, to stop any erosion of the AOA, and to effectively "check" the company's move by ENLARGING the membership of the HKAOA with the new hires.
The "Recruitment Ban" would have some meaning if CX were trying to replace existing crews with direct entry Captains (and perhaps, F/O's capable of being upgraded in a short period) - again, the training would need to be done by current CX TC's.
I don't see Second Officers, nor brand new F/O's for that matter, as a threat to the incumbent pilots - EXCEPT, as has been pointed out by others, as a dilution to the percentage of pilots represented by the AOA.
Like it or not, the spotlight DOES fall directly onto the Training Captains simply because the Second Officer positions WILL be filled.
If the Training Captains are not willing to take some action (or INaction), then are the crews rostered to fly with these newly trained S/O's willing to refuse to fly with them?
The "Recruitment Ban" has been issued - are the CX pilots willing to follow that ban and its further implications RIGHT THROUGH?
If not, then a review is in order, I believe, to stop any erosion of the AOA, and to effectively "check" the company's move by ENLARGING the membership of the HKAOA with the new hires.
Last edited by Kaptin M; 16th May 2002 at 20:56.
Join Date: May 2002
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Gott in himmel, donner und blitzen (all I remember from my comic reading days). Kaptin M that part of your post which I understood I agree with! It is completely unreasonable that the focus should be on the training captains. Until this ban is either complete, no upgrades etc, or dispensed with completely then two things: one, the AOA members look like hypocrites and, two there is no way forward. The training captains are in an untenable position and THEIR union should do the right thing.