Thursday night diversions CLK
The problem is more than the Hong Kong government. It's the 'glass wall' north of HKIA and 'bizarro world' beyond. The chaos after HKG weather events just gets worse every year, to the point that HKG as a hub (during the summer months at least) may become unviable.
Mach's post about the CX722 delay is incredible reading. What should be a routine diversion anywhere else on the planet becomes a 17 hour endurance test for passengers and crew.
They can build all the runways they want at HKIA but until these imbeciles north of the border sort out their airspace and their aircraft and passenger handling it's just going to get worse.
China running the world any time soon? I don't think so
.
P.S. And why won't they let us use Zhuhai as an alternate FFS?
Mach's post about the CX722 delay is incredible reading. What should be a routine diversion anywhere else on the planet becomes a 17 hour endurance test for passengers and crew.
They can build all the runways they want at HKIA but until these imbeciles north of the border sort out their airspace and their aircraft and passenger handling it's just going to get worse.
China running the world any time soon? I don't think so
.P.S. And why won't they let us use Zhuhai as an alternate FFS?
Last edited by Captain Dart; 1st Apr 2013 at 00:52.
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Whilst I don't disagree, your solution is to merely treat the symptoms. What next? 1 hr, 2hr, 3hr??? The root cause never gets fixed that way. Because the real problem(s) is(are) systemic (ATC, mainland airspace, plus, plus, plus), the only way to improve things is political/commercial pressure.
We all know how much sway big business has with the HK government. If the bomb-burst of CX/KA aircraft diversions from HK to places like ZGSZ, ZGGG, ZSAM, RCKH etc was to start happening twice a week, the pax complaints in the press would be possible to ignore, and CX/KA/Swire/CAAC would be all over the HK governent, both publicly & privately. Only then will there be genuine systemic improvements.
CX do a cost-benefit analysis. They accept a certain percentage of flights will divert when CFP is carried. As long as that is cheaper (totalled over a year) than giving every single arrival into HK another 15 min REC EXTRA, then things won't change. What they count on is for us to be destination minded & carry some extra when necessary.
It's a chain of events. Effective today, we should always carry CFP - no more. If that's not enough & too many people end up elsewhere, they'll raise the standard REC EXTRA. If that gets too expensive they'll take it up with the HK Government.
And before anyone starts casting "unprofessional" accusations, I'm not espousing less than CFP (unlike some STCs). I'm definitely not suggesting ignoring the requirement to always have fuel to go somewhere & land (quite the opposite). Take CFP - if you need to divert, then do it.
We all know how much sway big business has with the HK government. If the bomb-burst of CX/KA aircraft diversions from HK to places like ZGSZ, ZGGG, ZSAM, RCKH etc was to start happening twice a week, the pax complaints in the press would be possible to ignore, and CX/KA/Swire/CAAC would be all over the HK governent, both publicly & privately. Only then will there be genuine systemic improvements.
CX do a cost-benefit analysis. They accept a certain percentage of flights will divert when CFP is carried. As long as that is cheaper (totalled over a year) than giving every single arrival into HK another 15 min REC EXTRA, then things won't change. What they count on is for us to be destination minded & carry some extra when necessary.
It's a chain of events. Effective today, we should always carry CFP - no more. If that's not enough & too many people end up elsewhere, they'll raise the standard REC EXTRA. If that gets too expensive they'll take it up with the HK Government.
And before anyone starts casting "unprofessional" accusations, I'm not espousing less than CFP (unlike some STCs). I'm definitely not suggesting ignoring the requirement to always have fuel to go somewhere & land (quite the opposite). Take CFP - if you need to divert, then do it.
Last edited by SweepTheLeg; 1st Apr 2013 at 01:05.
Sweeptheleg:-----
Sorry bud but as front line staff WE have to be on the Aircraft dealing with the 12 hour delay in ZGSZ as well and that's NOT something I want to live through thanks all the same.
So you take CFP and I'll take what I decide appropriate under the circumstances. That's what they pay me the big bucks for!! ( or not, as the industrial case may be !! )
Sorry bud but as front line staff WE have to be on the Aircraft dealing with the 12 hour delay in ZGSZ as well and that's NOT something I want to live through thanks all the same.
So you take CFP and I'll take what I decide appropriate under the circumstances. That's what they pay me the big bucks for!! ( or not, as the industrial case may be !! )
Last edited by nitpicker330; 1st Apr 2013 at 06:12.
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Dan,
This rumour board is for "Professional Pilots" and quite rightly we should be getting passengers from A to B (not C). Many of the posts here are from pilots who are not very professional.
HOWEVER, if management are going to intimidate people for taking extra fuel, as has been happening a lot in the recent months, then all it does is to encourage the thinking we see here. You will not get a pat on the back for taking extra fuel and landing at destination. You will not be called up to the office if you take CFP and end up diverting. You WILL be called up to the office if you often take more than CFP and the Line-ops spread sheet pings you as being in the top part of the list of captains who take more than CFP.
Truth is, the occassional additional uplift done sensibly should keep you away from the 3rd floor but if calling captains up to explain their fuel choices continues, then why shouldn't we be boycotting taking extra and just take CFP every sector? If they want to intimidate then its their mess to deal with.
This rumour board is for "Professional Pilots" and quite rightly we should be getting passengers from A to B (not C). Many of the posts here are from pilots who are not very professional.
HOWEVER, if management are going to intimidate people for taking extra fuel, as has been happening a lot in the recent months, then all it does is to encourage the thinking we see here. You will not get a pat on the back for taking extra fuel and landing at destination. You will not be called up to the office if you take CFP and end up diverting. You WILL be called up to the office if you often take more than CFP and the Line-ops spread sheet pings you as being in the top part of the list of captains who take more than CFP.
Truth is, the occassional additional uplift done sensibly should keep you away from the 3rd floor but if calling captains up to explain their fuel choices continues, then why shouldn't we be boycotting taking extra and just take CFP every sector? If they want to intimidate then its their mess to deal with.
Last edited by geh065; 2nd Apr 2013 at 11:04. Reason: spelling
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So very typical of a CX pilot... a few of you guys think way to highly of yourselves. I can't believe you actually think CX "pays you the big bucks" (WTF??) to make a fuel decision.
CX pays you to play with their train set operated by their rules! I can't believe some of you still think otherwise! Don't give this this "I'm a professional blah blah blah." If you were a professional you'd do what you were told and stop complaining about a diversion. They've made it clear what they want, but us CX pilots always know better...
CX pays you to play with their train set operated by their rules! I can't believe some of you still think otherwise! Don't give this this "I'm a professional blah blah blah." If you were a professional you'd do what you were told and stop complaining about a diversion. They've made it clear what they want, but us CX pilots always know better...
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I'm not complaining about a diversion, I'm complaining about advocating CFP fuel when the WX forecast is +TSRA 1000M 150/25G35
You go ahead and continue to be intimidated and take CFP fuel in marginal wx. I'll continue to make sensible, justifiable fuel decisions.
You go ahead and continue to be intimidated and take CFP fuel in marginal wx. I'll continue to make sensible, justifiable fuel decisions.
You make it sound like they give you no REC EXTRA when the WX is forecast to be something like this. Show me one flight plan where this is the case! They give you the REC EXTRA they want you to take. They've made it clear that this is what they expect. Why would you expose yourself and let CX continue to abuse our professionalism by taking any more? Really? What upside is there?
Ignore the ignorant trolls Dan.
I agree with you ( in my post above and here ) 100%
At the end of the day we are paid to do a job and "most" of us do it to a very professional standard.
If those idiots wish to spend 12 hours in ZGSZ with their Pax then go for it!!
I agree with you ( in my post above and here ) 100%
At the end of the day we are paid to do a job and "most" of us do it to a very professional standard.
If those idiots wish to spend 12 hours in ZGSZ with their Pax then go for it!!
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At the end of the day we are paid to do a job and "most" of us do it to a very professional standard.
I'm pretty sure that I each time I walk through despatch, every guy in that room thinks he's the smartest one there...
BusyB,
Thats why they gave me the "Summer" alternate for RJCC with snow forecast for both dest & alt!!!!
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Nitpicker,
Let me guess you also work G days being the consummate professional you are!
By taking more than CFP in the current environment when other guys are getting harassed or by working your G days its the same thing - screwing the pilot body in the long term.
Let me guess you also work G days being the consummate professional you are!
By taking more than CFP in the current environment when other guys are getting harassed or by working your G days its the same thing - screwing the pilot body in the long term.
NowAndThen,
Its easier than that, you just take the CFP and forecast back to despatch and ask why. They then say, Mistake-Summer schedules started so no-one had looked at forecast. I was then given a revised CFP as per CX policy with RJAA and Rec extra, and no, I didn't have to divert although it was snowing.
Its easier than that, you just take the CFP and forecast back to despatch and ask why. They then say, Mistake-Summer schedules started so no-one had looked at forecast. I was then given a revised CFP as per CX policy with RJAA and Rec extra, and no, I didn't have to divert although it was snowing.
NoAndThen:-- Well it looks as if your definition of professional and mine will differ greatly 
Enjoy ZGSZ or whatever other place you end up in after blindly following Flight Dispatch's canned CFP and loading Flight plan fuel.
( oh and don't bother reading the TAF's either, you live by their judgement anyway don't you? )
Enjoy ZGSZ or whatever other place you end up in after blindly following Flight Dispatch's canned CFP and loading Flight plan fuel.
( oh and don't bother reading the TAF's either, you live by their judgement anyway don't you? )
Last edited by nitpicker330; 2nd Apr 2013 at 08:11.
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NoAndThen
I thought part of being professional was having the ability, intellect and responsibility to make decisions. If we merely follow orders ALL the time then I do not think we deserve to be called professionals and we might as well get our and let KMB bus drivers take over. Before you say anything, I know we are heading that way already but shouldn't we at least be glad we have the ability to make our own fuel decision? Blindly following CFP fuel on all flights is just one step closer to having KMB come and take over our jobs.
Why would you expose yourself and let CX continue to abuse our professionalism by taking any more? Really? What upside is there?
I thought part of being professional was having the ability, intellect and responsibility to make decisions. If we merely follow orders ALL the time then I do not think we deserve to be called professionals and we might as well get our and let KMB bus drivers take over. Before you say anything, I know we are heading that way already but shouldn't we at least be glad we have the ability to make our own fuel decision? Blindly following CFP fuel on all flights is just one step closer to having KMB come and take over our jobs.
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I know I'm feeding the trolls here, but what would you carry fuel-wise if your destination airport had a; 40-50 minute holding notam? Still cfp fuel?
Blindly following CFP fuel on all flights is just one step closer to having KMB come and take over our jobs.
Arfur Dent,
Also, the Fleets tell us to divert when we get to Min Div Fuel or would you go a bit sooner if most others were diverting too?? How much sooner?
Last edited by NoAndThen; 2nd Apr 2013 at 12:41.