Flameout/Collision Imminent
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Flameout/Collision Imminent
After the black afternoon some months back in HK airspace when there were three Fuel Maydays and two TCAS RA's, how many of us HK pilots are aware there was two more Fuel Maydays only about five weeks ago. The first debacle was lightly brushed off by our leaders and some new words were introduced to say the same thing when running out of fuel. The second afternoon was only covered as a day with numerous diversions due unforecast weather.
Whilst I find the information released regularly in CX Pravda concerning yield, fuel prices, long term gloom etc to be fascinating stuff, the censorship of the two more recent Fuel Maydays by Flight Safety, DFO, Fleet Offices etc is criminal in my opinion.
As the decision makers at the front end, we need to know this information. Both aircraft were stuck again in an ATC mess and unable to land OR divert until the captains declared Maydays and DIRECTED ATC as to which heading they were taking and where they were going.
HKG airspace is a disaster waiting to happen. Without some significant changes there will be a flame out or air collision in another weather related ATC breakdown.
Whilst I find the information released regularly in CX Pravda concerning yield, fuel prices, long term gloom etc to be fascinating stuff, the censorship of the two more recent Fuel Maydays by Flight Safety, DFO, Fleet Offices etc is criminal in my opinion.
As the decision makers at the front end, we need to know this information. Both aircraft were stuck again in an ATC mess and unable to land OR divert until the captains declared Maydays and DIRECTED ATC as to which heading they were taking and where they were going.
HKG airspace is a disaster waiting to happen. Without some significant changes there will be a flame out or air collision in another weather related ATC breakdown.
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Valhalla,
You are SO correct. This is another typical CX example of commercial pressure suppressing important safety information. The management are just seeking to avoid bad press. Sadly, most will never get to hear the real story.
Bottom line, earlier is better when dealing with HK ATC, bad weather, and flight plan fuel. I was there that night. We took flight plan fuel off an ULH flight because the weather was forecast to be CAVOK for our arrival window. In Taiwanese airspace, it was obvious that there was WX and ATC trouble entering HKG. We avoided becoming another mayday by doing a 135 left back to RCKH before Elato and landed there with plenty of fuel for Taipei should something happen. Overly conservative? Maybe, but I was glad to be me and not one of those sucking the seat cushion up their rear due no fuel cushion.
You are SO correct. This is another typical CX example of commercial pressure suppressing important safety information. The management are just seeking to avoid bad press. Sadly, most will never get to hear the real story.
Bottom line, earlier is better when dealing with HK ATC, bad weather, and flight plan fuel. I was there that night. We took flight plan fuel off an ULH flight because the weather was forecast to be CAVOK for our arrival window. In Taiwanese airspace, it was obvious that there was WX and ATC trouble entering HKG. We avoided becoming another mayday by doing a 135 left back to RCKH before Elato and landed there with plenty of fuel for Taipei should something happen. Overly conservative? Maybe, but I was glad to be me and not one of those sucking the seat cushion up their rear due no fuel cushion.
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About two weeks ago, 600 people were saved by TCAS - the last line of defence. A gweillo controller dropped a HKA to a lower level but missed out another traffic (a Korean carrier) which was a direct conflict below. Against all odds, it was a complete error of the gweillo controller. But how come, gweillos are better, he shouldn't have done that.
It was on a night with fine weather.
It was on a night with fine weather.
Last edited by LIKE.HKA; 28th May 2012 at 06:14.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I was always told that the only time you have uplifted too much fuel is when you are on fire...
This time of the year in the region, never ever let anyone else tell you how much to uplift.
This time of the year in the region, never ever let anyone else tell you how much to uplift.
Fuel wasn't a problem when I was there and I'm a bit of a big girl's blouse when it comes to extra gas.
I once asked to see the fuel league table and there I was, close to the bottom but there hadn't been a word from the boss.
I once asked to see the fuel league table and there I was, close to the bottom but there hadn't been a word from the boss.
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Yeh gweilos are useless, that's why your poxy airlines/atc/financial institutions etc etc can't run without them in that gas chamber you call a city.
Or do you just hire them because your nice people
Or do you just hire them because your nice people
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I always like to watch everyone else face when the PF decide to take less fuel after the ZFW has dropped. Really!!!! Also like to see his buttchicks squeezing tight when unforecast headwind and weather at dest. is different than the mighty CFP.
Go for it!!!!!
Go for it!!!!!
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ZFW.....
So positionalpor, going by your "logic" I assume you always put on (or recommend putting on) extra fuel on every flight, just in case the winds are different from the "mighty CFP" (which I find pretty accurate generally, I must say)? To do otherwise would mean that you yourself would always run the risk of your own "buttchicks [sic] squeezing tight" if presented with the circumstances you put forward - or do you rely on contingency fuel in that case?
Assuming the ZFW hadn't dropped but instead remained as planned at 10T lower than your example then the "mighty CFP" would have shown a fuel figure which would have been the same as the revised figure calculated in your example. So, in that case, if you don't put on (or recommend putting on) additional fuel then you clearly don't subscribe to your own "logic". Thoughts?
STP
PS. Apologies for the thread drift.
Assuming the ZFW hadn't dropped but instead remained as planned at 10T lower than your example then the "mighty CFP" would have shown a fuel figure which would have been the same as the revised figure calculated in your example. So, in that case, if you don't put on (or recommend putting on) additional fuel then you clearly don't subscribe to your own "logic". Thoughts?
STP
PS. Apologies for the thread drift.
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Thoughts STP
I agree. The mistake I feel with your argument is in ascribing the word/concept "logic" to positionalpor's comments. So many people on this forum break down the value of their own contribution by sweeping generalisation, inconsistency and possibly saying stuff they don't really mean because they are shooting from the hip. Most contributors have at some point demonstrated a fair level of intelligence to achieve the qualifications to be here. By not using it "we" give the naysayers, (Management, ATC, Non-Union Members, depending on topic) the ammunition they need to ignore the valid comments being made. No-one minds humour, personal deity knows we need it to survive here, just not ranting. Lastly I personally have whacked a load of fuel on recently, but selectively, and in my opinion could and would have justified it, logically, to a checker of your choice.
Last edited by White None; 29th May 2012 at 00:27.
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It always cracks me up when people underline and mark the weather forecast at ETA as IF the word forecast means anything other than an educated guess. Never mind that there's heavy rain at both sides of that so called WINDOW. It is foolish to then blame ATC or whoever else for your pushing your luck and expect ATC to help you out of your self created predicament as if you are the center of the universe and they have no one else to deal with than you. And if you don't know the difference between "minimum fuel" and "mayday", you really should look it up.
