Freighter PXing - Can it be a victory?
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Freighter PXing - Can it be a victory?
"Two pilots recently concluded their Discipline and Grievance (D&G) process in regard to being forced to position on the Freighter, which is in contravention of our CoS. It seems the result of these D&G proceedings is that they have been assured that they will not be 'rostered' to position via the Freighter." 
Key observation: "Rostered" is in quotations...
Key observation: "Rostered" is in quotations...
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Presumably that applies to all of us then? Difficult to see how they can operate a freighter roster without pxing on the freighter.
Full credit for pxing on the freighter might persuade me to consider it.
Full credit for pxing on the freighter might persuade me to consider it.
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How easily and fast could someone possibly cave in and give away a proper win in our favour?
I have a better idea: Since the seats suck, they don't recline for those 9 and 11+ hour-long ANC-HKG winter PX flights, there is no legroom, there is no service or entertainment system, Part A does not allow PX crew to use the bunks if they are available and not hogged by an inconsiderate other PXer, plus the PX often come with intermediate stops with 2-4 hours of cargo loading, often immediately after an 8- or 12- or 14-hour duty all night long, all to avoid a hotel and allowances and a rest period, not to mention paying for your own taxis in multiple local currencies and hoping the claim will be reimbursed sometime without endless fuss about details....So, with all that in mind, how about 300% credit for freighter PXing as a starting point for negotiations, so that you can end up with no less than 200% credit including ground time between flights? Sounds crazy? I believe UPS gives 100% and 200% extra credit (beyond the rostered credit) when patterns are extended by 1 and 2 days from the published roster. Guess what? Everyone gets home on time to catch the confirmed flight they bought and make it to their kids' birthday parties and catch the cruise they purchased a month or two ago.
Their answer about everything is their interpretation of the CoS or RP or whatever. Now their interpretation of the CoS, which we all agree with, is that freighter PXing is not allowed for those 2 guys. If the same rationale applies to you, or me, or anyone, or everyone, then it applies. Bending and breaking the rules because you like it just means giving them a green light to bend and break the rules when they like it: Thus the problem with everything.
If freighter PXing is not allowed, then it is lot allowed. It is not the pilots' fault that the company created ASL and semi-merged the pilots and hired DECs and gave away out of seniority freighter commands, etc, etc, etc...so it is not our fault that the lousy fleet rostering system they have developed and the unworkable manning levels they have caused is a problem, and it is not our problem to fix. If they would like our help to fix it and keep things running, then they will have to do something for us. Considering that this has been going on for a decade or whatever, I think they owe us a lot in return.
I believe the AOA has long been proposing a resolution beneficial to all: Freighter PXing is optional and at the discretion of the pilot, who may opt in if he wishes. But that is only half the battle. Let's not let them waste 3 months or 3 years or 10 years on fixing this.
Properly-written clauses, complete with mutually agreed upon "intentions" and "operational implementations" and "examples" and "amplifications" or whatever it takes to fully describe the meaning of something to prevent re-interpretations, must be leveraged.
Those 777 freighters, and possibly many more, are on the way as well. Don't wait until then to find out what everyone else has been fighting about.
I have a better idea: Since the seats suck, they don't recline for those 9 and 11+ hour-long ANC-HKG winter PX flights, there is no legroom, there is no service or entertainment system, Part A does not allow PX crew to use the bunks if they are available and not hogged by an inconsiderate other PXer, plus the PX often come with intermediate stops with 2-4 hours of cargo loading, often immediately after an 8- or 12- or 14-hour duty all night long, all to avoid a hotel and allowances and a rest period, not to mention paying for your own taxis in multiple local currencies and hoping the claim will be reimbursed sometime without endless fuss about details....So, with all that in mind, how about 300% credit for freighter PXing as a starting point for negotiations, so that you can end up with no less than 200% credit including ground time between flights? Sounds crazy? I believe UPS gives 100% and 200% extra credit (beyond the rostered credit) when patterns are extended by 1 and 2 days from the published roster. Guess what? Everyone gets home on time to catch the confirmed flight they bought and make it to their kids' birthday parties and catch the cruise they purchased a month or two ago.
Their answer about everything is their interpretation of the CoS or RP or whatever. Now their interpretation of the CoS, which we all agree with, is that freighter PXing is not allowed for those 2 guys. If the same rationale applies to you, or me, or anyone, or everyone, then it applies. Bending and breaking the rules because you like it just means giving them a green light to bend and break the rules when they like it: Thus the problem with everything.
If freighter PXing is not allowed, then it is lot allowed. It is not the pilots' fault that the company created ASL and semi-merged the pilots and hired DECs and gave away out of seniority freighter commands, etc, etc, etc...so it is not our fault that the lousy fleet rostering system they have developed and the unworkable manning levels they have caused is a problem, and it is not our problem to fix. If they would like our help to fix it and keep things running, then they will have to do something for us. Considering that this has been going on for a decade or whatever, I think they owe us a lot in return.
I believe the AOA has long been proposing a resolution beneficial to all: Freighter PXing is optional and at the discretion of the pilot, who may opt in if he wishes. But that is only half the battle. Let's not let them waste 3 months or 3 years or 10 years on fixing this.
Properly-written clauses, complete with mutually agreed upon "intentions" and "operational implementations" and "examples" and "amplifications" or whatever it takes to fully describe the meaning of something to prevent re-interpretations, must be leveraged.
Those 777 freighters, and possibly many more, are on the way as well. Don't wait until then to find out what everyone else has been fighting about.
Last edited by Iron Skillet; 7th Feb 2012 at 21:01.
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joebanana, our CoS is going backwards because of people like you. 
Iron Skillet, here's a properly written clause from the UPS pilot contract. If those who wrote OUR CoS had used half a brain, this would preclude the argument placing our positioning crew in the back of an Alaska Airlines MD-80 from Anchorage to LAX (5 hours or so) because the front is called FIRST and we're only entitled to BUSINESS!
(2) If an approved carrier’s aircraft only has two (2) cabins, a fully refundable
ticket for the front cabin will be provided. If the approved carrier has more
than a two (2) cabin configuration, a fully refundable business class or
equivalent ticket will be provided.
Their deadheading (positioning) procedures and rules takes up 9 pages of their contract! Our CoS was written by people who have no idea how to write a pilot contract.
Also, their contract is full of examples showing the proper way to interpret things just so there is no room for discussion! No such clarification for OURS!
Iron Skillet, here's a properly written clause from the UPS pilot contract. If those who wrote OUR CoS had used half a brain, this would preclude the argument placing our positioning crew in the back of an Alaska Airlines MD-80 from Anchorage to LAX (5 hours or so) because the front is called FIRST and we're only entitled to BUSINESS!
(2) If an approved carrier’s aircraft only has two (2) cabins, a fully refundable
ticket for the front cabin will be provided. If the approved carrier has more
than a two (2) cabin configuration, a fully refundable business class or
equivalent ticket will be provided.
Their deadheading (positioning) procedures and rules takes up 9 pages of their contract! Our CoS was written by people who have no idea how to write a pilot contract.
Also, their contract is full of examples showing the proper way to interpret things just so there is no room for discussion! No such clarification for OURS!
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Caving in....????
Full credit for pxing on the freighter might persuade me to consider it.
I believe the AOA has long been proposing a resolution beneficial to all
Oval, like skillet, you're point about the contract I am in full agreement with but starting off with an unsubstantiated, unnecessary and wholly inaccurate insult demeans the point you are making.
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Oval it's people like you that degrade our cos
STAYING AND CONTINUING TO FIGHT IS INSANITY, PAY YOUR DUES AND ENJOY YOUR MEATLESS NEWSLETTERS…DRIVEL DRIVEL DRIVEL
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Oval3holer is assisted in his "freeloading" by those who feel the need to rush on here and inform him and others of AOA driven developments.
Why should he pay his dues when he can logon here and get informed and have his say for absolutely no expense?
Why should he pay his dues when he can logon here and get informed and have his say for absolutely no expense?
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I am starting to doubt the usefulness of the AOA. This had nothing to do with them. It has been something that everyone has been complaining about as it is a blatant breach of our CoS, what did the AOA do? Put some stuff in newsletters, maybe write to someone in CX. How is it now sorted out for two guys? They did it themselves.
Why has this been going on so long? Why did the AOA not sort it out?
CX treat our CoS as guidelines not rules. Why do we all put up with it. They are so short of crew right now it is the perfect time to make a list of all the dodgy wording and vague meanings in our contract. Make a list of all the interpretation that common sense says the company is taking advantage of. If it is not re written by the end of March we start working to our contract (why people still don't is a mystery).
Before anyone suggests I run for GC rather than complaining on pprune, I would not be good at it and don't want to.
Why has this been going on so long? Why did the AOA not sort it out?
CX treat our CoS as guidelines not rules. Why do we all put up with it. They are so short of crew right now it is the perfect time to make a list of all the dodgy wording and vague meanings in our contract. Make a list of all the interpretation that common sense says the company is taking advantage of. If it is not re written by the end of March we start working to our contract (why people still don't is a mystery).
Before anyone suggests I run for GC rather than complaining on pprune, I would not be good at it and don't want to.
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I do support it by being a member. They may be flat out but to be honest nothing changes. Why can't it be simple. CX break our CoS, pretty simple, people continue to help out, they should not until our CoS are amended or at the very least respected by the company.
