Joburg Wed night
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When I was at....!!
The ground crew confirmed by head set voice communications that three pins were removed and the secondary confirmation was via the visual showing of three pins to the Captain when he was cleared and safe to taxi?
The three pins on the flight deck where for flight deck use only if they were required at an off route landings.
I think you would have really needed a "Danger man" in charge as Captain if they had lost an engine at rotate.
The ground crew confirmed by head set voice communications that three pins were removed and the secondary confirmation was via the visual showing of three pins to the Captain when he was cleared and safe to taxi?
The three pins on the flight deck where for flight deck use only if they were required at an off route landings.
I think you would have really needed a "Danger man" in charge as Captain if they had lost an engine at rotate.
The Reverend
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This is a good reminder to do a thorough walkaround check before this mishap strikes you. It happened to me once in Brussels when Sabena maintenace taxied the aircraft to the departure stand with the main gearpins installed without streamers on them. I must admit I missed them on my walkaround. The last item on the after start check list was; are all cargo doors closed and safety pins removed. The answer by the ground engineer was affirmative. I've never got over missing to spot those pins and always looked for the holes and not the pins there after.
In the old days at Dragon it was standard procedure to get down on one knee when first entering the flight deck to check the gear pins were stowed.
Then along came someone from outside who apparently knew far more about operating the Airbus in our system. He insisted this was not necessary as the maintenance crew might use its their own pins.
“Yes, yes.” we all said, “We are very well aware of that thank you, but belts n braces etc….”.
No matter. Now the SOP is to instead flick through noise and maintenance certificates. We also now check that we have not forgotten such essentials as putting on our seatbelt. Most of the KA crews still get down on one knee to take a peek though.
We might be a cynical and rambunctious lot but we know how to stay safe in the KA network… The LOSA agrees.
Then along came someone from outside who apparently knew far more about operating the Airbus in our system. He insisted this was not necessary as the maintenance crew might use its their own pins.
“Yes, yes.” we all said, “We are very well aware of that thank you, but belts n braces etc….”.
No matter. Now the SOP is to instead flick through noise and maintenance certificates. We also now check that we have not forgotten such essentials as putting on our seatbelt. Most of the KA crews still get down on one knee to take a peek though.
We might be a cynical and rambunctious lot but we know how to stay safe in the KA network… The LOSA agrees.
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We might be a cynical and rambunctious lot but we know how to stay safe in the KA network… The LOSA agrees.
I didn't want this to deteriorate into a slanging match over standards. Nor was I trying to play a Monday morning quarterback on the Johburg event.
Spanners seemed to indicate that a FLT DECK inspection of the pins a crew SOP. I can't find this written anywhere. Yet, I still check the pins myself.
KA is an entirely different operation to CX. Yet we have your SOPS. Yes, a bunch of them were just dumped recently. And my understanding is, aircraft pins still get used at KA on night stops in China. So checking them despite it not saying so, as well as a thorough walk-around, probably logical.
Remember too, the co-pilot at KA could be a second officer or an MPL holder. So I don't mean to be professionally rude and querying CX SOPS on pprune, however, whereas the CX operation may be well protected by CX SOPS. KA's operation can be critically exposed by them. We can't rely on them, we need to pull them apart and critically think of where they may not work eg did the engineer in China use the aircraft pins and does the second officer/ MPL holder doing the walk around know where the pins may be?
Spanners seemed to indicate that a FLT DECK inspection of the pins a crew SOP. I can't find this written anywhere. Yet, I still check the pins myself.
KA is an entirely different operation to CX. Yet we have your SOPS. Yes, a bunch of them were just dumped recently. And my understanding is, aircraft pins still get used at KA on night stops in China. So checking them despite it not saying so, as well as a thorough walk-around, probably logical.
Remember too, the co-pilot at KA could be a second officer or an MPL holder. So I don't mean to be professionally rude and querying CX SOPS on pprune, however, whereas the CX operation may be well protected by CX SOPS. KA's operation can be critically exposed by them. We can't rely on them, we need to pull them apart and critically think of where they may not work eg did the engineer in China use the aircraft pins and does the second officer/ MPL holder doing the walk around know where the pins may be?
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If you are seriously thinking that the SO/MPL second pilot may not know to look for gear pins or where they would be during the walk around I think there is something far more concerning than some SOPs
You've missed the point.
We have to look beyond the SOPS due lack of experience in the RHS. Would an green S/O or MPL pick up pins with missing Remove Before Flight streamers? It is just an example I've used to show the difference in operations.
Again, I wasn't trying to be difficult probing CX SOPS above, just very interested as to where things can go wrong. There is a different mindset at KA due China Ops and now, due frequent low levels of experience in the RHS. And we will be the Group experiment for MPL's.
We have to look beyond the SOPS due lack of experience in the RHS. Would an green S/O or MPL pick up pins with missing Remove Before Flight streamers? It is just an example I've used to show the difference in operations.
Again, I wasn't trying to be difficult probing CX SOPS above, just very interested as to where things can go wrong. There is a different mindset at KA due China Ops and now, due frequent low levels of experience in the RHS. And we will be the Group experiment for MPL's.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 1st May 2011 at 13:23.
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There has been at least one case where all the pins were stowed in the flt deck stowage, (giving anyone who likes to see what they expect to see a warm fuzzy feeling), but a separate set was actually still in the undercarriage locks whilst the aircraft had been either towed or maintained. Admitedly, this was many years ago.
I think Hot dog has it correct, in as much as without the Richard Gear 'get out of jail free' card, you don't so much look for the pins, but you need to check to make sure the holes the pins go into are all empty. That was what I was taught at previous jobs and also at this company by long departed trainers like Adrian B and Phil A.
Gnadenburg, I am with you in as much as inexperienced guys probably just look for the absence of streamers, and some may not definatively identify the holes.
I think Hot dog has it correct, in as much as without the Richard Gear 'get out of jail free' card, you don't so much look for the pins, but you need to check to make sure the holes the pins go into are all empty. That was what I was taught at previous jobs and also at this company by long departed trainers like Adrian B and Phil A.
Gnadenburg, I am with you in as much as inexperienced guys probably just look for the absence of streamers, and some may not definatively identify the holes.
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Gear pins fitted ALWAYS = TLB entry opened.
Gear pins not removed ALWAYS = TLB entry NOT closed.
Of course the above is NOT idiot proof but it does clearly identify the noose size and quite rightly so.
Gear pins not removed is an unforgivable sin, in my view.
As Tech Crew would never install gear pins, it has to be a maintenance committed sin.
Departing with an open TLB entry has to be a Tech Crew sin.
There is absolutely NO wiggle room in that.
Gear pins not removed ALWAYS = TLB entry NOT closed.
Of course the above is NOT idiot proof but it does clearly identify the noose size and quite rightly so.
Gear pins not removed is an unforgivable sin, in my view.
As Tech Crew would never install gear pins, it has to be a maintenance committed sin.
Departing with an open TLB entry has to be a Tech Crew sin.
There is absolutely NO wiggle room in that.
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Gear pins were fitted and TLB entry made.
Gear pins were removed and TLB entry made.
Unfortunately the CTR gear pin was left in!
It's happened before and it'll happen again, however the more safety nets you can put in the better, although this was a maintenace error, other safety nets should of been there, the crew that did the walkaround actually checked the gear, the pins on the flt deck were checked (if the maintenance provider used their own pins not much help), we never use our own pins we always use the a/c supplied ones helps to prevent such things, the person dispatching the a/c makes a statement to the flt deck, ALL PINS REMOVED, so he/she should of checked.
At a guess commercial pressure is involved, time, lack of manpower (the guy signing for pins probably never even saw the a/c) the list goes on, but at the end of the day as long as a profit is made it doesn't matter!
Gear pins were removed and TLB entry made.
Unfortunately the CTR gear pin was left in!
It's happened before and it'll happen again, however the more safety nets you can put in the better, although this was a maintenace error, other safety nets should of been there, the crew that did the walkaround actually checked the gear, the pins on the flt deck were checked (if the maintenance provider used their own pins not much help), we never use our own pins we always use the a/c supplied ones helps to prevent such things, the person dispatching the a/c makes a statement to the flt deck, ALL PINS REMOVED, so he/she should of checked.
At a guess commercial pressure is involved, time, lack of manpower (the guy signing for pins probably never even saw the a/c) the list goes on, but at the end of the day as long as a profit is made it doesn't matter!
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i know cx is not unders FAR'S but...
91.3..... The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
so.. not f/o, not relief, not s/o not engineering's fault...
we all know who signs for the jet and who is making the big bucks..
regardless he will probably be inline for dfo...
91.3..... The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
so.. not f/o, not relief, not s/o not engineering's fault...
we all know who signs for the jet and who is making the big bucks..
regardless he will probably be inline for dfo...
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91.3..... The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
I have never understood why, with gear pins installed a circuit could be closed that would provide a warning in the cockpit.
The CV880 had these as standard.
It can't be that hard !
The CV880 had these as standard.
It can't be that hard !
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91.3..... The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
so who's the scape goat???
well, you know, go down the list.......management, commercial pressure, engineer, ramp handler, poorly written SOP, any SOP, cabin crew, pax, the wife, the kids, the girl friend, the bank manager, the landloard, the other guy/gal in the seat.......etc. etc.
the point? the Capt is always in charge except when ...........
no its not FAR or even EASA, it the CX Way
