S/O Bypass Case
Join Date: Oct 2007
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+ Many more such cases!
This Company is a bunch of bullies, and middle management is made up of slime. We are the last line of defense!
Take them on together in a well though out plan and do it NOW!!!
Bring on CC. Don't let them get away with it!
While doing that, put on your white suit and do it our own subtle way.
Either way stay professional when doing your job!
Don't drop your guard to safety!
If you're too stressed or sick in the slightest stay at home, I refuse to fly with those whom are not focused on flying and working as a team!
Nether will I enjoy flying with those wishee washee pilots with a carrot up your b.m whom are not in the union and not helping the cause. Take it out, grow some & show integrity & pride in yourself & your occupation. Don't be bullied any longer!
You live once, so make it count! Take a hard look at yourself in the mirror and decide man or mouse?
If u decide mouse, then at least be a clever cunning one like the Lion & mouse story. Then at least we stand a chance but by doing nothing we'll constantly see this career become one of regret!
Take them on together in a well though out plan and do it NOW!!!
Bring on CC. Don't let them get away with it!
While doing that, put on your white suit and do it our own subtle way.
Either way stay professional when doing your job!
Don't drop your guard to safety!
If you're too stressed or sick in the slightest stay at home, I refuse to fly with those whom are not focused on flying and working as a team!
Nether will I enjoy flying with those wishee washee pilots with a carrot up your b.m whom are not in the union and not helping the cause. Take it out, grow some & show integrity & pride in yourself & your occupation. Don't be bullied any longer!
You live once, so make it count! Take a hard look at yourself in the mirror and decide man or mouse?
If u decide mouse, then at least be a clever cunning one like the Lion & mouse story. Then at least we stand a chance but by doing nothing we'll constantly see this career become one of regret!
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Has the judge bothered to take into account WHY bypass is written into the contract at all then.If It is completely at the discretion of the company to upgrade people and pay bypass why do we have seniority at all. Seems to me the judge fails to understand our system and contract.
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I'd like to offer some assistance to those who need some guidance over the coming months .....
Please take the time to read my : 5 step program
Please take the time to read my : 5 step program
Join Date: Jan 2007
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So, Gone Down, you are only NOW entering voluntary CC? So you weren't bothering to do it before? But NOW you want us all to join you?
Been doing it since I got here, so you go ahead and do whatever you want.
Been doing it since I got here, so you go ahead and do whatever you want.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Wraith
C'mon mate, I'm sure most of us are already doing it, I certainly haven't been a "compulsory" answerer of my phone. Why dig at someone who has just been shafted, in a big way, with such a divisive post? Are we all trying to achieve the same end result?
Solidarity
Nosey
Solidarity
Nosey
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Fair enough, Nose Gear. You're right.
It infuriates me that the company take this right out of the hands of deserving SOs and it takes my level of utter loathing for this management team to new depths. I am glad that personally I don't do anything other than what I have to for these people. The thought of showing them ANY goodwill makes me wretch. And it speaks volumes for the judicial service in this part of the World, because if someone wasn't "coerced" here I would eat my cheap, Shenzhen, 2HKD, piece of crap hat.
I hope the SOs collectively see the day when these sorry excuses for human beings get their own comeuppance.
It infuriates me that the company take this right out of the hands of deserving SOs and it takes my level of utter loathing for this management team to new depths. I am glad that personally I don't do anything other than what I have to for these people. The thought of showing them ANY goodwill makes me wretch. And it speaks volumes for the judicial service in this part of the World, because if someone wasn't "coerced" here I would eat my cheap, Shenzhen, 2HKD, piece of crap hat.
I hope the SOs collectively see the day when these sorry excuses for human beings get their own comeuppance.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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A surprising ruling that will raise eyebrows.
An average person reading our contract to the best of his abilities would be expected to understand that he will receive BPP if not promoted while DEFO are hired. The intent of the contract is quite clear and playing with words and definitions or digging deep into documents to try to come up with a reason why the company doesn't have to pay BPP is just senseless.
If it takes months for a judge to come up with a reason why the company doesn't have to pay BPP, it's obviously a flawed reason. Otherwise, how could anyone expect an average pilot to understand his employment contract then?
If the judge is right, then there is a case to say that the contract is intentionally misleading, obscure and with illusions of benefits that the company has no intention to give. It's close to coercion.
The airline certainly always has the option of upgrading an officer or not. It has always been the case but isn't relevant to BPP. What is relevant however, is that should the airline decide not to upgrade an officer then they have to pay BPP. Sure, the airline has a right to decide when to promote, but they also have an obligation to pay BPP should they use that right against an officer.
Interests and politics probably played a role, by the looks of it.
An average person reading our contract to the best of his abilities would be expected to understand that he will receive BPP if not promoted while DEFO are hired. The intent of the contract is quite clear and playing with words and definitions or digging deep into documents to try to come up with a reason why the company doesn't have to pay BPP is just senseless.
If it takes months for a judge to come up with a reason why the company doesn't have to pay BPP, it's obviously a flawed reason. Otherwise, how could anyone expect an average pilot to understand his employment contract then?
If the judge is right, then there is a case to say that the contract is intentionally misleading, obscure and with illusions of benefits that the company has no intention to give. It's close to coercion.
The judge wrote in her judgment that the employment contract stated that the airline had a right to decide when it needed to promote a second officer, which the tribunal had failed to take into account.
Interests and politics probably played a role, by the looks of it.
Touché
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New Joiners - should be concerned.
I think with this ruling and what has already been stated; the confusion implied in the contract without clearly defining promotion prospects, the industry slow down cycles, the tardy response to pay claims, housing, etc, Minimal expansion, continued threat of outsourcing, would make it a very SECOND option to consider coming to Cathay for a career. Then again, maybe that is what they want. It is not a career airline.
It would be nice to see a change to the attitude towards pilots and I am sure the company would reap the benefits to get them on side, but the message is becoming louder and louder.
It would be nice to see a change to the attitude towards pilots and I am sure the company would reap the benefits to get them on side, but the message is becoming louder and louder.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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New rumour
After a few drinks in town last night a Swire employee told me in a round about way that CX, is setting up to a big share sale to Air China.
That leaves me thinking that costs and control of employees are vital to reduce ATK and for financial leverage to have MAX effect at a time when yield and revenue are on the increase.
It ties up well with why Cx no don't care much about us and our good will for the long run as we'll be become more and more a Chinese company.
With more and more support of the big knobs in Beijing do we ever stand a chance in court?
Worth a try and to keep doing so, but I'd say crank up the industrial pressure in a professional way. As they are going to try and make us look like the bad ones..
Not standing up together & NOW, will result in a very slippery slope!
That leaves me thinking that costs and control of employees are vital to reduce ATK and for financial leverage to have MAX effect at a time when yield and revenue are on the increase.
It ties up well with why Cx no don't care much about us and our good will for the long run as we'll be become more and more a Chinese company.
With more and more support of the big knobs in Beijing do we ever stand a chance in court?
Worth a try and to keep doing so, but I'd say crank up the industrial pressure in a professional way. As they are going to try and make us look like the bad ones..
Not standing up together & NOW, will result in a very slippery slope!
Last edited by crewsunite; 12th Nov 2010 at 05:00.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Bobrun - A second to the "good post" call.
Hopefully, something along the lines of what you've raised is the basis for our appeal... and hopefully our lawyers get a kick in the pants for screwing up the basics of appeal procedure the first time around.
One theme from the verdict was that not enough evidence was produced to support our arguments. How about calling on 2000 pilots to explain their understanding of their contractual rights to BPP and what promotion times written meant to them?
Were we seeking the right answers through all of this? This case started as one about Bypass Pay, but morphed into one of delayed promotion. I'm still not sure that a judicial decision was made on the contractual "approximately 18 months" + "delayed by no more than 12 months while recruiting DEFOs"?
Hopefully, something along the lines of what you've raised is the basis for our appeal... and hopefully our lawyers get a kick in the pants for screwing up the basics of appeal procedure the first time around.
One theme from the verdict was that not enough evidence was produced to support our arguments. How about calling on 2000 pilots to explain their understanding of their contractual rights to BPP and what promotion times written meant to them?
Were we seeking the right answers through all of this? This case started as one about Bypass Pay, but morphed into one of delayed promotion. I'm still not sure that a judicial decision was made on the contractual "approximately 18 months" + "delayed by no more than 12 months while recruiting DEFOs"?
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What Cathay doesn't seem to realize is that these pilots directly (and indirectly) affected by this ruling are at the beginning of their careers. Do you ever think they'll ever show CX any goodwill after this? Ever? As in for the rest of their careers?
It's going to cost CX a lot more money in the long run than paying out a one time BPP payment to a few hundred guys.
Why CX management thinks of its employees as liabilities as opposed to their greatest assets is beyond me... especially in a commodity driven business where the only differentiation is through its employees.
Southwest Airlines has a good relationship between management and its employees. They are by far the highest paid 737 drivers in NA. And they're also the most profitable airline in NA. Does anyone really believe that's by coincidence?
It's going to cost CX a lot more money in the long run than paying out a one time BPP payment to a few hundred guys.
Why CX management thinks of its employees as liabilities as opposed to their greatest assets is beyond me... especially in a commodity driven business where the only differentiation is through its employees.
Southwest Airlines has a good relationship between management and its employees. They are by far the highest paid 737 drivers in NA. And they're also the most profitable airline in NA. Does anyone really believe that's by coincidence?
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My sentiments exsactly.
I wish we had interdepartmental Boxing or Ice Hockey as a CX Sport. I'd happily to get into the ring: me against all 4 (TT, RH, NR, SK )
I'd sure get red carded if not banded for life! But then again these sports allow you to settle an "emotional build up
" & then to get on with playing the game.
Sadly in this job we only have Pprune..
( Or can we work together 
)
But dare I find them in a dark Alley!
I'd sure get red carded if not banded for life! But then again these sports allow you to settle an "emotional build up
" & then to get on with playing the game. Sadly in this job we only have Pprune..
( Or can we work together )But dare I find them in a dark Alley!
Join Date: Mar 2002
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SweepTheLeg you are absolutely right!
CX won in the tribunal this week unfortunately.
You have hit the nail right on the head.
Give it a few years [??] and the SOs that CX have just pissed off big time are going to be in the left seat, making decisons on Commanders Discretion, Fuel Policy, etc, etc.
The guys flying the aircraft control the fuel burn by the way they choose to manage the flight!
Piss the flight crew off at your peril CX!
CX won in the tribunal this week unfortunately.
You have hit the nail right on the head.
Give it a few years [??] and the SOs that CX have just pissed off big time are going to be in the left seat, making decisons on Commanders Discretion, Fuel Policy, etc, etc.
The guys flying the aircraft control the fuel burn by the way they choose to manage the flight!
Piss the flight crew off at your peril CX!
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RE: above post about revenge
I feel truly sad that i have been reduced to working in an environment where many feel so negative about management that they take a certain pride in stooping morally down to their level and perversely now take pride in it. But the above poster is correct - many will make cx pay in some form or another....
I feel truly sad that i have been reduced to working in an environment where many feel so negative about management that they take a certain pride in stooping morally down to their level and perversely now take pride in it. But the above poster is correct - many will make cx pay in some form or another....
Last edited by yokebearer; 14th Nov 2010 at 01:08.