Air China Cargo the new ASL
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Gentleman;
Everytime you slander or complain about the "AOA" it is the Cathay Pacific Pilots you put down.
We are the AOA !!!
If you don't like it, run for leadership.
Quite your whining and be part of the solution.
Everytime you slander or complain about the "AOA" it is the Cathay Pacific Pilots you put down.
We are the AOA !!!
If you don't like it, run for leadership.
Quite your whining and be part of the solution.
Agreed. And it's time for contract compliance, and 'no jump seat' policy for non-members of the HKAOA. Enough is enough.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 28th Mar 2010 at 02:52.
Some may say that 'the main problem is the leadership' (to quote a previous poster), but the HKAOA is the only game in town, and is`only as effective as the involvement of its members. Blaming the leadership is just a cop-out for many, a lame excuse for inaction and non-involvement.
However, whatever one's views:
However, whatever one's views:
- Contract compliance sends a message to management that conditions of service have been eroded enough; recent action by the cabin crew is noteworthy for its result.
- 'No jump seats to non-members' sends a message to those riding on the backs of their fellow pilots that it's time to man up, pay the money, have a voice and do their bit. It is my opinion that the non-members have been 'soft soaped' enough.
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Kudos Captain Dart,
The only people that would whinge about the "no Jump Seat" comment are non-members who are a minority and who are willing to ride off the coat-tails of the AOA who negotiates everything to do with THEIR lives, yet they are too gutless to be part of the movement.
The only people that would whinge about the "no Jump Seat" comment are non-members who are a minority and who are willing to ride off the coat-tails of the AOA who negotiates everything to do with THEIR lives, yet they are too gutless to be part of the movement.
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too gutless to be part of the movement.
No jump seats to non-members
And when a non-AoA member calls you for a J/S, will you be brave enough to tell him no to his face??? Talk is cheap!!!!
The million dollar moron himself.
I agree with Simplex!!!
The AOA ceased to be a union or relevant the day Gardner and Co. abandoned the 49ers by doing a sleazy deal to benefit management
Last edited by Flap10; 28th Mar 2010 at 12:56.
We have another one: 'abandonment of the 49ers' (now years old) is another excuse for not being involved. I'll put that one down along with 'the problem is the leadership'.
Captains do not have to tell anyone 'to their face' that they cannot have the jump seat; jump seat applicants are mostly processed (or not
) on the Crew Direct website. Then there's always 'sorry old chap, it's Association policy... why don't you become a member?'.
Many jump seat requests are from 'commuters', who often very much 'give a sh!t' whether they get a jump seat or not. They are on full Hong Kong salaries and allowances, mostly not paying tax in their 'home' country and some of them A-scale. There are a few of these gentlemen still too lousy to pay a few bucks a month to the HKAOA to support their fellow pilots.
Flap 10, you are a comic genius. Changing 'Captain Dart' to 'Captain Fart'! I would never have thought up that one!
Although after the curry and beer I had last night, maybe a change to that nom de guerre may be appropriate...
Captains do not have to tell anyone 'to their face' that they cannot have the jump seat; jump seat applicants are mostly processed (or not
) on the Crew Direct website. Then there's always 'sorry old chap, it's Association policy... why don't you become a member?'.Many jump seat requests are from 'commuters', who often very much 'give a sh!t' whether they get a jump seat or not. They are on full Hong Kong salaries and allowances, mostly not paying tax in their 'home' country and some of them A-scale. There are a few of these gentlemen still too lousy to pay a few bucks a month to the HKAOA to support their fellow pilots.
Flap 10, you are a comic genius. Changing 'Captain Dart' to 'Captain Fart'! I would never have thought up that one!
Although after the curry and beer I had last night, maybe a change to that nom de guerre may be appropriate...
Last edited by Captain Dart; 28th Mar 2010 at 23:49.
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"Captains do not have to tell anyone 'to their face' that they cannot have the jump seat; jump seat applicants are mostly processed (or not ) on the Crew Direct website"
You gutless piece of crap!
Just so we are clear, you want to punish the individuals who do not believe in membership of the AOA in an attempt to increase the membership of the AOA? So now, said individuals will be forced to pay the measly membership dues to secure their commuting jump seat? Result - another member who joins for the wrong reason, does not vote or take action on any of the issues but allows the AOA 'jihadist's' to spout to the company what a large majority of crew we have in our union and how powerful we now are
The problem is not the leadership of the AOA, it is the army of 'alleged' followers who could not stick together on sticky the stick insects sticky bun! If we were united then we could elect a leadership that focused on the goals we were ALL committed to and take the action required. The FAU are successful because their united, they respect their leadership and are not afraid of the company. The AOA will never be successful because it is not, we do not and enough are definitely afraid. The vast majority of CC do not care about their careers (yes I know there are some that do and proud of it) and have very little to lose by sticking to their principles. Most do not care if they work here or at Disneyland and the company knows that. They give CX no loyalty and they expect none in return - with absolutely no disrespect intended, for most, it is just a job!
A smart union employs smart people and uses the resources sensibly and tactically. Look at the BA strike, the company claimed success by 'only losing 21million pounds'. You think if we lost that because of industrial action, the management of this 'profit at the expense of everything else' company would still be employed? How many BA CC voted for strike action simply because of membership rather than because of belief - apart from the 3000 minority, enough of them and just like our CC, they will win some of what they seek in the long run because the company is AFRAID of them, what they will do and how much money it will cost the shareholders. The company had to introduce swapping restrictions because of a 'minority' that were regularly abusing the system. Why not put restrictions on the few abusers? Because it was not about that, it was about a tool for illustrating who was in control of who. Fortunately because of the strong will of the FAU, the company got a good Beach slapping!!
The only way to stop this company from eroding the COS is to put the airplanes on the ground and that will never happen, unless the CC do it. Sure, vote for contract compliance
Good luck getting the 'body' to agree and then getting the 'body' to do it. Perhaps Captain Dart can oversee the process and ban Captains from their own Jump Seat use when they do not just comply with their contract 
How many crews out there are already practicing their own contract compliance? Not enough and most AOA members? If your not, then you are your own worst enemy and get everything you deserve. You do not have to be in the AOA or as smart as Captain Dart to understand what the future is for the COS in this company.
Here is a radical suggestion, why not get all the crews on bases who are legally protected to take industrial action against the company to withdraw labor for a few days at a time. What!!!
You mean do something powerful and tactical that would really make a difference and send a very powerful message to the company that we have had enough. You mean something like the FAU would do if they could? The company could not stop my housing or education allowance because I don't get one but wait, why should the people on bases be the ones to make the stand when all those pilots in the paradise of Hong Kong are living it up in expensive company paid properties and enjoying that low tax rate on their constantly eroding HKD salary? AND what will the company do to me if I do that. After all, I have so many friends who are now unemployed and have taken big pay cuts to save their jobs and I do love going down to the pub every night or a baseball game on the weekends. Oh there is the phone, CC on my day off. Hello...... 
Before you all start spitting on your keyboards and PM'ing me hate mail, I am not having a go at based people, A scalers, B scalers, C&T or Freighter pilots but it's an example of what could be done and illustrates the sad reality of our position. Nobody is prepared to do anything for anyone else, even when it would be a decisive act simply because they do not believe enough in the cause or have been beaten enough in the past. The company relies on that attitude and probably recruits with that in mind to ensure they always win any dispute.
If the AOA want to do something meaningful and increase the membership, join up with the FAU and become a super majority. Maybe it is being talked about, maybe it is not, maybe it is possible, maybe it is not. I am not suggesting we let the FAU fight our battles but they could certainly teach us a thing or two about how to deal with the company. In reality they do not need us at all so why bother even discussing it with us. Besides, we are far too proud and smart to take their advice anyway
On second thoughts, let us just ban non-members from Jump Seats, the Golf Club and the Yacht Club. That will certainly show the company we mean business
) on the Crew Direct website"You gutless piece of crap!
Just so we are clear, you want to punish the individuals who do not believe in membership of the AOA in an attempt to increase the membership of the AOA? So now, said individuals will be forced to pay the measly membership dues to secure their commuting jump seat? Result - another member who joins for the wrong reason, does not vote or take action on any of the issues but allows the AOA 'jihadist's' to spout to the company what a large majority of crew we have in our union and how powerful we now are
The problem is not the leadership of the AOA, it is the army of 'alleged' followers who could not stick together on sticky the stick insects sticky bun! If we were united then we could elect a leadership that focused on the goals we were ALL committed to and take the action required. The FAU are successful because their united, they respect their leadership and are not afraid of the company. The AOA will never be successful because it is not, we do not and enough are definitely afraid. The vast majority of CC do not care about their careers (yes I know there are some that do and proud of it) and have very little to lose by sticking to their principles. Most do not care if they work here or at Disneyland and the company knows that. They give CX no loyalty and they expect none in return - with absolutely no disrespect intended, for most, it is just a job!
A smart union employs smart people and uses the resources sensibly and tactically. Look at the BA strike, the company claimed success by 'only losing 21million pounds'. You think if we lost that because of industrial action, the management of this 'profit at the expense of everything else' company would still be employed? How many BA CC voted for strike action simply because of membership rather than because of belief - apart from the 3000 minority, enough of them and just like our CC, they will win some of what they seek in the long run because the company is AFRAID of them, what they will do and how much money it will cost the shareholders. The company had to introduce swapping restrictions because of a 'minority' that were regularly abusing the system. Why not put restrictions on the few abusers? Because it was not about that, it was about a tool for illustrating who was in control of who. Fortunately because of the strong will of the FAU, the company got a good Beach slapping!!
The only way to stop this company from eroding the COS is to put the airplanes on the ground and that will never happen, unless the CC do it. Sure, vote for contract compliance
Good luck getting the 'body' to agree and then getting the 'body' to do it. Perhaps Captain Dart can oversee the process and ban Captains from their own Jump Seat use when they do not just comply with their contract How many crews out there are already practicing their own contract compliance? Not enough and most AOA members? If your not, then you are your own worst enemy and get everything you deserve. You do not have to be in the AOA or as smart as Captain Dart to understand what the future is for the COS in this company.Here is a radical suggestion, why not get all the crews on bases who are legally protected to take industrial action against the company to withdraw labor for a few days at a time. What!!!
You mean do something powerful and tactical that would really make a difference and send a very powerful message to the company that we have had enough. You mean something like the FAU would do if they could? The company could not stop my housing or education allowance because I don't get one but wait, why should the people on bases be the ones to make the stand when all those pilots in the paradise of Hong Kong are living it up in expensive company paid properties and enjoying that low tax rate on their constantly eroding HKD salary? AND what will the company do to me if I do that. After all, I have so many friends who are now unemployed and have taken big pay cuts to save their jobs and I do love going down to the pub every night or a baseball game on the weekends. Oh there is the phone, CC on my day off. Hello...... Before you all start spitting on your keyboards and PM'ing me hate mail, I am not having a go at based people, A scalers, B scalers, C&T or Freighter pilots but it's an example of what could be done and illustrates the sad reality of our position. Nobody is prepared to do anything for anyone else, even when it would be a decisive act simply because they do not believe enough in the cause or have been beaten enough in the past. The company relies on that attitude and probably recruits with that in mind to ensure they always win any dispute.
If the AOA want to do something meaningful and increase the membership, join up with the FAU and become a super majority. Maybe it is being talked about, maybe it is not, maybe it is possible, maybe it is not. I am not suggesting we let the FAU fight our battles but they could certainly teach us a thing or two about how to deal with the company. In reality they do not need us at all so why bother even discussing it with us. Besides, we are far too proud and smart to take their advice anyway
On second thoughts, let us just ban non-members from Jump Seats, the Golf Club and the Yacht Club. That will certainly show the company we mean business
Last edited by Johnny Drama; 30th Mar 2010 at 00:45.
Johnny Drama (you have a very appropriate nom de guerre), it is the non-members of the Association who are 'gutless', and they should not be allowed to leech off the goodwill of those who support the Association, including captains who allow the privilege of jump seats.
I repeat, we've soft-soaped the non-members long enough, the 'have a voice' approach has gone on long enough, and the bleating on Pprune has gone on long enough.
I propose direct action: 'no jump seats for non-members'.
I do agree that after the onshoring of the bases is complete, anything is possible (there may be people one step ahead of you). Your statements confirm that membership of the Association, especially on the bases, is vital.
For example, there is a very capable and hard-working AOA team negotiating the package for the Australian base; management is actually complaining about how 'difficult' negotiations are. It's not Hong Kong where the big 'hongs' can say 'ay yah we do wha' we want'. However, the Association is concerned about the number of non-members on that base; these individuals jeopardise the efforts of the team and also reap the reward of any gains without contributing anything.
Finally, a word of advice: learning the correct use of apostrophes and refraining from personal abuse would add a little credibility to your posts.
I repeat, we've soft-soaped the non-members long enough, the 'have a voice' approach has gone on long enough, and the bleating on Pprune has gone on long enough.
I propose direct action: 'no jump seats for non-members'.
I do agree that after the onshoring of the bases is complete, anything is possible (there may be people one step ahead of you). Your statements confirm that membership of the Association, especially on the bases, is vital.
For example, there is a very capable and hard-working AOA team negotiating the package for the Australian base; management is actually complaining about how 'difficult' negotiations are. It's not Hong Kong where the big 'hongs' can say 'ay yah we do wha' we want'. However, the Association is concerned about the number of non-members on that base; these individuals jeopardise the efforts of the team and also reap the reward of any gains without contributing anything.
Finally, a word of advice: learning the correct use of apostrophes and refraining from personal abuse would add a little credibility to your posts.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 30th Mar 2010 at 00:21.
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Please tell me what rewards you are referring to? I've seen nothing but decreasing conditions of service, (CPT Dart) I’m sure you were the first in line to walk out on the 49ers. I'm disgusted with the likes of you. Were you at the 49ers trial to support your fellow fallen pilots? I was there and I can tell you that from the CX pilot body only three (Yes three) current CX pilots showed up to support them. #$%@ Off! Grow some balls and then criticize the non-members when you are willing to put your job on the line. Coward!!! I quite the AOA because I can't stand people like YOU!!! All talk and no morals.
I couldn't make the trial due to roster, and I agree that the turnout was pathetic. However, I financially contributed to the Cathay Pilots Union over many years until the 49ers got to the steps of the courthouse. I wear my yellow-banded AOA tie pin with pride.
Now that 'people like me' have made you 'quite' (sic) the AOA, you had better hope that your are not involved in an incident or accident, because IFALPA will not be there to help you. And good luck negotiating better conditions as just one, alone, of 2000 + pilots against the Swire Group. I understand that the DFO has an 'open door policy'.
Be sure to post again letting us all know how you are getting on.
Now that 'people like me' have made you 'quite' (sic) the AOA, you had better hope that your are not involved in an incident or accident, because IFALPA will not be there to help you. And good luck negotiating better conditions as just one, alone, of 2000 + pilots against the Swire Group. I understand that the DFO has an 'open door policy'.
Be sure to post again letting us all know how you are getting on.
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You worked every single day during the trial? not one day off during the two weeks? I think not. You where just scared like the rest (Nicky might see you there and you would pay for it one day) I'm glad you support the CPU financially but do you really support the 49er? Your AOA died the day the pilot body cut those 49 gentlemen loose.
Not all of us are based in Hong Kong, Pasa. See my previous posts for 'excuses not to be an HKAOA member'. Good luck on your own.
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If I @#$%- up in a jet I'm willing to ware the consequences, what I'm not willing to do is compromise what I believe in. One of my best friends is a 49er and I could not look him in the face if I were a AOA member. This is the same establishment that swore to protect it's membership ( what a joke) .Good luck with your future as well, let me know how it all goes for you. The company laughs at the AOA and it will continue to erode your conditions because the AOA membership is not moral enough to stand by its word.
Last edited by pasa001; 30th Mar 2010 at 23:02.
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Is it T***'s or Twats?
Dart, thank you for all the advice and for the appreciation of my nom de guerre, although I am sure you do not understand it
Have corrected my previous post for all those errors you pointed out, was far too busy checking the non-members list against all those JS requests to proof read it. You see, was never very good at the Times Crossword, always too busy managing the flight, talking on the wireless and of course keeping an eye on that freeloader sat on the jump seat
Sorry mate but if you think that hiding behind crew direct to perform your own brand of industrial racism makes you some type of hero then you are completely gutless and I would be surprised if many people would disagree. The fact that you believe awarding JS requests as a privilege, also makes you a complete pompous T**T. Ooops, there goes my credibility again I, on the other hand, consider it a privilege to be in a position to award said requests in order to help pilots, office workers and their families who desperately rely on those seats to improve their quality of life, regardless of their own personal beliefs. If it cannot be awarded, for any reason, I always send a Groupwise explaining why because that is the way I would like to be treated when I make a request for myself or one of my family members. I fortunately do not commute anymore but feel very privileged to be on your list Dart 
If the AOA want to increase the membership they have to do a better job of convincing people that in a crisis with the company, they can make a real difference. Do you honestly believe they have done that Dart? The standard rebuttal of "the company will do what they want to do anyway, with or without the AOA" is hard to argue with and the standard response of "imagine what the company would do without the AOA" just does not cut it anymore. If they have made life difficult for the company in AUS then good, use that information as a recruiting tool ISO controlling what people need in order to get their compliance. That is a company tactic and we all know how we respond to that. AUS style scab lists are not the way to make make friends and influence people in a positive way.
Good luck with your WITCH HUNT Dart, I for one will not vote for it as it will do nothing more than make you happy. You have almost convinced me to quit and reap all the rewards through your dollar though. Well done old chap
Have corrected my previous post for all those errors you pointed out, was far too busy checking the non-members list against all those JS requests to proof read it. You see, was never very good at the Times Crossword, always too busy managing the flight, talking on the wireless and of course keeping an eye on that freeloader sat on the jump seat
Sorry mate but if you think that hiding behind crew direct to perform your own brand of industrial racism makes you some type of hero then you are completely gutless and I would be surprised if many people would disagree. The fact that you believe awarding JS requests as a privilege, also makes you a complete pompous T**T. Ooops, there goes my credibility again
I, on the other hand, consider it a privilege to be in a position to award said requests in order to help pilots, office workers and their families who desperately rely on those seats to improve their quality of life, regardless of their own personal beliefs. If it cannot be awarded, for any reason, I always send a Groupwise explaining why because that is the way I would like to be treated when I make a request for myself or one of my family members. I fortunately do not commute anymore but feel very privileged to be on your list Dart If the AOA want to increase the membership they have to do a better job of convincing people that in a crisis with the company, they can make a real difference. Do you honestly believe they have done that Dart? The standard rebuttal of "the company will do what they want to do anyway, with or without the AOA" is hard to argue with and the standard response of "imagine what the company would do without the AOA" just does not cut it anymore. If they have made life difficult for the company in AUS then good, use that information as a recruiting tool ISO controlling what people need in order to get their compliance. That is a company tactic and we all know how we respond to that. AUS style scab lists are not the way to make make friends and influence people in a positive way.
Good luck with your WITCH HUNT Dart, I for one will not vote for it as it will do nothing more than make you happy. You have almost convinced me to quit and reap all the rewards through your dollar though. Well done old chap
Last edited by Johnny Drama; 30th Mar 2010 at 03:06.
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Captain Dart
Ahh, couldn't make the trial due roster, not hong kong based..... had to bend over in the end because no other option.
Last edited by pacific blues; 30th Mar 2010 at 03:39. Reason: title
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Hi Johnny
This from your Wikipedia profile:
Only quoting, not saying I'm agreeing!
Actually, I agree with both you and Captain Dart in many respects. I don't agree with Dart's no jumpseat policy but hey, everyone's entitled to their point of view. I think it's fair to say that you both come across as people who want to achieve something but I don't think that having a punch up about it is the way to go - still, that is part of the fun of this forum, let's face it.
STP
Johnny, nice pick up on the "privelige"/"privilege" in your earlier post....
This from your Wikipedia profile:
He is a pompous, self-important individual...
Actually, I agree with both you and Captain Dart in many respects. I don't agree with Dart's no jumpseat policy but hey, everyone's entitled to their point of view. I think it's fair to say that you both come across as people who want to achieve something but I don't think that having a punch up about it is the way to go - still, that is part of the fun of this forum, let's face it.
STP
Johnny, nice pick up on the "privelige"/"privilege" in your earlier post....
Ground staff, cabin crew, and members of the HKAOA and DPA are always welcome on my jump seat! Enjoy the ride .
.
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Captain Dart is really smart! Oh that is poetry
Gee Captain Dart,
You must be proud of yourself. A self righteous "A scale" boy. Sorry there are so many loooooooossssers( sic) on this forum. BTW, dude, I have a BSc. Do you, most educated one. I would not be so condescending to your colleagues who don't spell in such an elegant way as yourself. So what, they are pilots; not English teachers!
Must be all that schooling at Rugby School eh? I can you see now in Central, in the bar, pounding the flesh, with your seniority members. Holding court with the 3rd floor crew. my god, how proud you are.
You are a legend in your own mind. BTW, sweetheart, check your mail box at CX Citi la! Be careful opening the envelope......LOL
You must be proud of yourself. A self righteous "A scale" boy. Sorry there are so many loooooooossssers( sic) on this forum. BTW, dude, I have a BSc. Do you, most educated one. I would not be so condescending to your colleagues who don't spell in such an elegant way as yourself. So what, they are pilots; not English teachers!
Must be all that schooling at Rugby School eh? I can you see now in Central, in the bar, pounding the flesh, with your seniority members. Holding court with the 3rd floor crew. my god, how proud you are.
You are a legend in your own mind. BTW, sweetheart, check your mail box at CX Citi la! Be careful opening the envelope......LOL