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Commander when in crew rest

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Commander when in crew rest

Old 20th Feb 2010, 07:27
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jun 1999
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Commander when in crew rest

Can someone give some insight into the responsibility of a commander when on crew rest.

What happens if a stuffup occurs while the skipper is stacking zzzzz's in the bunk. An example being an altitude bust en route.

Do governing authorities hold the commander responsible for such an incident when not on the flight deck. Have there been any cases of this?

Its something I have never understood especially considering that the crew are all required to have access to rest according to FTL's.

Just wondering.
oicur12 is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2010, 09:14
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Is there something you want to confess???
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2010, 09:25
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Isn't that why they get paid the big bucks....
F_one is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2010, 09:28
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It's actually the second in command who would be responsible.That's why the the Commander and the ISM shouldn't take rest at the same time...

STP
Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2010, 10:32
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The commander AND the ISM. Are you saying they're not the same person?
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Old 20th Feb 2010, 11:51
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Is that because the ISM monitors the flight with their flight path and ATC communications uplink app for iphone and can take over with the remote aircraft flight path controller app for iphone if they deem intervention is required?
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Old 20th Feb 2010, 14:10
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I thought ISM is the overall commander of the flight? Ask 'Masako' about it .....

VR
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Old 20th Feb 2010, 18:28
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Having never flown long before I was just wondering what the legalities are when the only commander is in crew rest when something occurs.


The reason I posed the question here was because in a recent breakfast conversation with commanders from various airline backgrounds, nobody could actually pin down a precise answer. No one had a clear understanding of the legal implications of crew rest.


Thanks for taking the time to answer with maturity and intelligence guys. I forgot how cynical the bitter and twisted harbor dwellers really are.
oicur12 is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2010, 20:09
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I forgot how cynical the bitter and twisted harbor dwellers really are.
A bit harsh, me thinks, nevertheless...
at our mob, the senior First Officer is in charge when the Captain is on crew rest, and he is paid accordingly.
He holds a full Command rating in the airplane, and operates it accordingly.
We are a small company, with really outstanding experienced folks on the FD.
I expect CX is much the same....experience-wise.
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Old 20th Feb 2010, 21:20
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Handover briefing..

oicur12

Sorry for the flippant reply - I feel suitably chastised.

Seriously though, nothing is likely to happen because if you read Vol 2 about the handover briefing you'll see that it's very comprehensive. One thing that is missing though is the final point, which of course should be:

Don't stuff up

STP

PS. The Commander is always responsible.
Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2010, 22:39
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Isn't that why the CN logs the entire flight while the FO logs only time in seat?
kmagyoyo is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2010, 02:47
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Years ago on a ship the Captain always signed off the log as he went for rest with the words, "If in any doubt, wake me." I asked why and he said that under maritime law he was responsible for the ship even when asleep and that is the best the company lawyers could come up with to give him a bit of cover.

I do not believe that aviation law has caught up with the concept of commanders rest, so it would be up to the interpretation of the judge on the day of the subsequent enquiry. Live with it.
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Old 21st Feb 2010, 05:58
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simple, a commander is always in charge when all goes well but the moment there is a stuff up, it's management's fault for putting commercial considerations before safety, or it's fatigue caused by untenable rosters, or it's latent factors brought on by systemic failures, or it's the wife's fault for be such a nag, or it's the kid's fault for not listening, or it's natures fault for the weather............

you get the drift
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Old 21st Feb 2010, 07:20
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Almost

Wobbly:

Not here, the commander will wear it no matter who is at fault. Actually the whole crew will wear it if something major happens. Even if things go exactly as trained and the crew does everything to perfection they will still be hauled in front of CSD and FOP who will do their utmost to confirm the company is not at fault. They may even forget to tell the crew what a great job they did, saving 300 + lives.

The "authorities" are not usually that involved.

411 : Not here relief qualified FOs (who may be the most junior FO on the flight deck) get an extra $80 us per month to be relief commander.

Hope that helps !!

FG
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Old 22nd Feb 2010, 10:37
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If something happens while the Captain is resting, he would only be responsible for the outcome based on his decisions AFTER he had been advised. The relief crew would be responsible legally up to that point. I would caution however that the courts may not hold to that, so basically.... no one really knows until it's tested in court.
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Old 2nd Mar 2010, 16:53
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Ah yes and we might ask, was the Captain of the Titanic "On Duty" at the time the iceberg was hit? This is only an associated question,not an answer.
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Old 3rd Mar 2010, 00:53
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Its quite simple really

Just ring the HK CAD they know everything
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 01:14
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At dispatch I like to ascertain the crews previous experience, GA Military Cadet etc. and if there are any G.A. guys then I don't really sleep.

I prefer to sit in the rest seats and stay alert for any unforeseen circumstances.

People may think this is over the top but I cant trust these G.A. guys at the wheel, I probably wouldn't sleep that well anyway.

If the crew are predominantly ex military then that's a different story.
Capt Toss Parker is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2010, 02:22
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Boom!

People may think this is over the top but I cant trust these G.A. guys at the wheel
If the crew are predominantly ex military then that's a different story.
Troll? To bite or not to bite, that is the question... anyway, I declare it open season on Capt TOSS(park)ER
freightdoggiedog is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2010, 02:36
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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I apologise for my honesty but that's the way I feel when it comes to ULH.

Guys from general aviation don't have the big picture that the military guys have, it comes down to the rigorous selection process and aptitude testing that we went through to join the military.

One of the first things I ask when I fly with a new guy is "what is your background", back in the day CX hired highly skilled aviators from a large pool of heavy jet and ex military pilots now they hire any old ding bat to make up the numbers.

When I was in the air force we used to brief everything, even how the landing will be conducted for the conditions presented and I intend to have this kind of discipline incorporated into our SOP's.
Capt Toss Parker is offline  

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