Pilot Fatigue
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Pilot Fatigue
Pilot-fatigue rules deserve review
Canada may not be doing what they should....but at least they aren't going backward. Does this mean our CoS08 'Cathay Canada' group have to follow Canadian CARs now?
Canada may not be doing what they should....but at least they aren't going backward. Does this mean our CoS08 'Cathay Canada' group have to follow Canadian CARs now?
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Pilot Fatigue, Flight Operations own it. Corporate Safety may think they own it but it is Flight Operations/Crew Scheduling property.
The new rule with 3 pilots ULH during daytime will be the Hong Kong day. We will import you from any base that is more that 6 hours time difference, give you an EXB or 34 hours free of duty and you will be expected to be on Hong Kong time. You will be expected to operate 14 hours ULH with the expectation that the Second Officer be burnt out (as you pilots call it).
Flight Operations will be allowed to have discretion on certain matters i.e. allowance to apply certain variations to the AFTL’s at the last moment to allow a flight to operate. As we have seen in the past for example is to operate 2 crew from 3 crew from Australia. This will be a more common occurrence in the future. The Pilots are expected to operate these flights even though they rested for a 3-crew operation. They will be expected to operate as we consider this as “normal tiredness” which is different from “fatigue”.
If not, the DFO will demand the Chief Pilot call the captain into the office for a chat to see why the aircraft did not depart with 2 crew. If the Captain does not adjust his attitude for future flights, we will have no other choice than to lose confidence in that member and either demote the captain or terminate his contract. You are now officially warned.
In actuality, Flight Operations/Crew Scheduling do not care for pilot fatigue, it is but a small thorn in our side. The DFO has mandated the Scheduling Department to extract as close to 84 hours per month from every pilot regardless of time zone. The Scheduling Department does not consider time zone displacement when making the schedule. The GMA’s decision is that if you have an EXB in Hong Kong you will be considered acclimatised regardless of time zone displacement.
Certain flights to and from the Middle East will continue with 2-crew operation through the night (or WOCL as some scientist like to call it) as will the double shuttle Singapore/Colombo. We give you the necessary time duty free to rest and expect you to be rested for your next duty even though you can’t sleep because it is your daytime. If you have to take sleeping pills on a regular basis, we don’t care. Show up for duty rested to complete the duty. Sleeping pills are available from the Company Doctors or from Quality Health Care.
Occasionally we get an ASR on our desk from pilots/corporate safety and we give the corporate safety department the appropriate lip service. We act concerned but continue with the status quo. Very occasionally we may have one submit an MOR but just an appropriate letter from the GMA explaining his interpretation will suffice because the CAD takes direction from us.
Hong Kong aviation is a business and will be treated as such. No way scientific data will creep into the AFTL’s and put limitations on OUR BUSINESS. It all comes down to making Hong Kong competitive which equals: more money for our shareholders, The CPG and more importantly us Managers as we are the driving force behind every decision in flight operations.
We believe that The CPG is the aorta of Hong Kong and without it, Hong Kong would simply die. LEGCO and The Civil Aviation Department know this and give us certain latitudes and of course we supply them with free First Class Service. This is the way business is done.
So continue to submit your ASR’s and MOR’s in your futile attempt and we will continue to give them the appropriate lip service.
To My Bonus
The Management
The new rule with 3 pilots ULH during daytime will be the Hong Kong day. We will import you from any base that is more that 6 hours time difference, give you an EXB or 34 hours free of duty and you will be expected to be on Hong Kong time. You will be expected to operate 14 hours ULH with the expectation that the Second Officer be burnt out (as you pilots call it).
Flight Operations will be allowed to have discretion on certain matters i.e. allowance to apply certain variations to the AFTL’s at the last moment to allow a flight to operate. As we have seen in the past for example is to operate 2 crew from 3 crew from Australia. This will be a more common occurrence in the future. The Pilots are expected to operate these flights even though they rested for a 3-crew operation. They will be expected to operate as we consider this as “normal tiredness” which is different from “fatigue”.
If not, the DFO will demand the Chief Pilot call the captain into the office for a chat to see why the aircraft did not depart with 2 crew. If the Captain does not adjust his attitude for future flights, we will have no other choice than to lose confidence in that member and either demote the captain or terminate his contract. You are now officially warned.
In actuality, Flight Operations/Crew Scheduling do not care for pilot fatigue, it is but a small thorn in our side. The DFO has mandated the Scheduling Department to extract as close to 84 hours per month from every pilot regardless of time zone. The Scheduling Department does not consider time zone displacement when making the schedule. The GMA’s decision is that if you have an EXB in Hong Kong you will be considered acclimatised regardless of time zone displacement.
Certain flights to and from the Middle East will continue with 2-crew operation through the night (or WOCL as some scientist like to call it) as will the double shuttle Singapore/Colombo. We give you the necessary time duty free to rest and expect you to be rested for your next duty even though you can’t sleep because it is your daytime. If you have to take sleeping pills on a regular basis, we don’t care. Show up for duty rested to complete the duty. Sleeping pills are available from the Company Doctors or from Quality Health Care.
Occasionally we get an ASR on our desk from pilots/corporate safety and we give the corporate safety department the appropriate lip service. We act concerned but continue with the status quo. Very occasionally we may have one submit an MOR but just an appropriate letter from the GMA explaining his interpretation will suffice because the CAD takes direction from us.
Hong Kong aviation is a business and will be treated as such. No way scientific data will creep into the AFTL’s and put limitations on OUR BUSINESS. It all comes down to making Hong Kong competitive which equals: more money for our shareholders, The CPG and more importantly us Managers as we are the driving force behind every decision in flight operations.
We believe that The CPG is the aorta of Hong Kong and without it, Hong Kong would simply die. LEGCO and The Civil Aviation Department know this and give us certain latitudes and of course we supply them with free First Class Service. This is the way business is done.
So continue to submit your ASR’s and MOR’s in your futile attempt and we will continue to give them the appropriate lip service.
To My Bonus
The Management
Last edited by The Management; 3rd Dec 2009 at 12:22.
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At the risk of diverging (slightly.....), I have been reading with interest what has been going on CX and the CAD (one in the same?) with regards to FDTL's. The dollar screams louder than safety, regrettably, and yet again.
However, my point is from experience of pilots ranting and raving over FDTL's yet catching a red-eye from a long weekend away to get to duty on time and then complaining of fatigue when min rest is prescribed for the tour of duty. Or, having that big night out, still clean as a whistle to report for duty of course, yet the "effects" on a previous day's sore head linger..... Now, I AM DEFINITELY not one to talk on some of these issues. The older I get the worse the effects.
I am a firm believer that what we do in our spare time is ours and ours alone.
What the HK CAD seem to be doing, with perhaps (!!) collusion and unfair influence from the CX bean-counters is wrong. While such issues reduce safety, so too does some pilots' lifestyle choices just prior to a draining duty. With these changes arriving such issues will only make things worse.
Just an opinion.
However, my point is from experience of pilots ranting and raving over FDTL's yet catching a red-eye from a long weekend away to get to duty on time and then complaining of fatigue when min rest is prescribed for the tour of duty. Or, having that big night out, still clean as a whistle to report for duty of course, yet the "effects" on a previous day's sore head linger..... Now, I AM DEFINITELY not one to talk on some of these issues. The older I get the worse the effects.
I am a firm believer that what we do in our spare time is ours and ours alone.
What the HK CAD seem to be doing, with perhaps (!!) collusion and unfair influence from the CX bean-counters is wrong. While such issues reduce safety, so too does some pilots' lifestyle choices just prior to a draining duty. With these changes arriving such issues will only make things worse.
Just an opinion.
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Top up
Not disgreeing, just confused....
You say.... "I am a firm believer that what we do in our spare time is ours and ours alone" and then....
"While such issues reduce safety, so too does some pilots' lifestyle choices just prior to a draining duty"
Are you saying a pilot should adjust his lifestyle for the next 45 years (in some cases) to that of a monk to counter the effect of AFTL's that are written with the dollar in mind, or are saying AFTL's should be written on the assumption that pilot's have a life away from CX..... whether that be family, social, sport, commuting.....
You say.... "I am a firm believer that what we do in our spare time is ours and ours alone" and then....
"While such issues reduce safety, so too does some pilots' lifestyle choices just prior to a draining duty"
Are you saying a pilot should adjust his lifestyle for the next 45 years (in some cases) to that of a monk to counter the effect of AFTL's that are written with the dollar in mind, or are saying AFTL's should be written on the assumption that pilot's have a life away from CX..... whether that be family, social, sport, commuting.....
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No. Like every part of our lives (work, play, family, study....) some common sense must prevail and especially with respect to those other systems you exist in. In this case some pretty nasty FDTL's that have been designed without common sense, against scientific evidence just to drive that dollar harder.
I believe these changes are WRONG, in development & application. You don't / can't run an engine at MCT so don't "plan" to do it & if so not expect an inflight shutdown. Same theory with these new FDTL's.
But, we as pilots also have a role to play. We can either actively contribute to a bad situation or use some common sense to help ourselves & the travelling public.
My day(s) off are sacred! Just as I'm not going to have an all-nighter on the booze & expect to enjoy the next day's skiing, the same applies in a more professional scenario at work. Now, combine that with prejudicial FDTL's designed to push things to what appears to be an unsafe limit & that to me adds another slice of Swiss cheese to the system.
The fact is that some pilots are their own worst enemy and then have the audacity to whine about FDTL's when they have contributed to their own fatigue. Example: I've had an FO in the past drive for 9 hrs straight to work from his girlfriend's place and then complain abut the roster, FDTL's, etc... And do I mind if I fly each sector while he has a snooze? Because of his selfish & unprofessional behaviour & attitude I must suffer as well as the well being of the flight you may argue. Now, when I chat to him in cruise he tells me that what he does in his own time is none of my business. True. But he just made it my business.
I hope these FDTL changes are fought off vehemently, but CX does have a reputation of damning the pilot input at the expense of profit.
I believe these changes are WRONG, in development & application. You don't / can't run an engine at MCT so don't "plan" to do it & if so not expect an inflight shutdown. Same theory with these new FDTL's.
But, we as pilots also have a role to play. We can either actively contribute to a bad situation or use some common sense to help ourselves & the travelling public.
My day(s) off are sacred! Just as I'm not going to have an all-nighter on the booze & expect to enjoy the next day's skiing, the same applies in a more professional scenario at work. Now, combine that with prejudicial FDTL's designed to push things to what appears to be an unsafe limit & that to me adds another slice of Swiss cheese to the system.
The fact is that some pilots are their own worst enemy and then have the audacity to whine about FDTL's when they have contributed to their own fatigue. Example: I've had an FO in the past drive for 9 hrs straight to work from his girlfriend's place and then complain abut the roster, FDTL's, etc... And do I mind if I fly each sector while he has a snooze? Because of his selfish & unprofessional behaviour & attitude I must suffer as well as the well being of the flight you may argue. Now, when I chat to him in cruise he tells me that what he does in his own time is none of my business. True. But he just made it my business.
I hope these FDTL changes are fought off vehemently, but CX does have a reputation of damning the pilot input at the expense of profit.
Last edited by TopTup; 4th Dec 2009 at 01:40.
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To My Lip Service
As expected and without delay, 'The Management' provides some 'bonus dribble' to the thread.
I think we know what he means about 'lip service' and we all know where his lips have been perched..........
To Your Next Ass Kissing
I think we know what he means about 'lip service' and we all know where his lips have been perched..........
To Your Next Ass Kissing
