COS08 RA65 SLS - everybody calm down!
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A CX TALE
ORGANISATIONAL CONDITIONING-A CX TALE
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Eight CX A scale pilots were put in a room. In the middle of the room was a ladder, leading to a bunch of COS's hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a A scaler tried to climb the ladder; all the A scalers were threatened with B scale, which made them miserable.
Soon enough, whenever a A scaler pilot attempted to climb the ladder, all of the other A scalers, not wanting to be threatened, set upon him and beat him up.
Soon, none of the eight A scalers ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original A scalers is then removed, and a new B scaler is put in the room.
Seeing the improved COS and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other pilots are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other pilots fall upon him and beat him silly.
He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.
A second original A scaler is removed and replaced. The new B scaler again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other pilots hammer the hell out of him. This includes the previous new B scaler, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other pilots are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new B scaler.
One by one, all the original A scalers are replaced. Eight new B scalers are now in the room. None of them have ever been threatened with SLS. None of them attempts to climb the ladder.
All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new B scale / Freighter / DEC / DEF/O or Local pilot who tries, without having any idea why.
AND THAT'S HOW ANY COMPANY'S POLICIES/PROCESS GETS ESTABLISHED!
ORGANISATIONAL CONDITIONING-A CX TALE
-----------------------------------------
Eight CX A scale pilots were put in a room. In the middle of the room was a ladder, leading to a bunch of COS's hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a A scaler tried to climb the ladder; all the A scalers were threatened with B scale, which made them miserable.
Soon enough, whenever a A scaler pilot attempted to climb the ladder, all of the other A scalers, not wanting to be threatened, set upon him and beat him up.
Soon, none of the eight A scalers ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original A scalers is then removed, and a new B scaler is put in the room.
Seeing the improved COS and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other pilots are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other pilots fall upon him and beat him silly.
He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.
A second original A scaler is removed and replaced. The new B scaler again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other pilots hammer the hell out of him. This includes the previous new B scaler, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other pilots are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new B scaler.
One by one, all the original A scalers are replaced. Eight new B scalers are now in the room. None of them have ever been threatened with SLS. None of them attempts to climb the ladder.
All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new B scale / Freighter / DEC / DEF/O or Local pilot who tries, without having any idea why.
AND THAT'S HOW ANY COMPANY'S POLICIES/PROCESS GETS ESTABLISHED!
Last edited by SMOC; 20th Apr 2009 at 16:57.
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Ugly Hostile Vitriol
Water Check, PanZa-Lead,
Please remember that the 'ugly hostile vitriol' on these forums comes from a core of 5 -10 posters. The majority of CX FO's are calm professionals who have plenty of respect for your experience and seniority. This is an unpleasant time for most of us, and I for one am looking forward to the AOA's information to help make some sense of it all.
I am very disappointed, yet not surprised about the lack of clear information on the choices presented from the company, and the laughably tight time scale in which they think we should make that decision.
Let's stay calm until the facts come out.
Please remember that the 'ugly hostile vitriol' on these forums comes from a core of 5 -10 posters. The majority of CX FO's are calm professionals who have plenty of respect for your experience and seniority. This is an unpleasant time for most of us, and I for one am looking forward to the AOA's information to help make some sense of it all.
I am very disappointed, yet not surprised about the lack of clear information on the choices presented from the company, and the laughably tight time scale in which they think we should make that decision.
Let's stay calm until the facts come out.
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I for one am looking forward to the AOA's information to help make some sense of it all.
Let's stay calm until the facts come out
Let's stay calm until the facts come out
Because the clock is ticking with 30th April aproaching fast..Fortunately I will not be able to make ANY decision by then. My lawyer is out of town, my insurance broker is only available middle of next month, and I'll either be flying, sleeping in a hotel or enjoying my G'days before I make any decisions regarding my whole future career and financial standing at CX..
There might be times in life when one makes rather impulsive decisions..but this is certainly NOT one of those moments..
CX WILL wait until I have clarity on ALL gray/uncertain/unclear areas re CoS..
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So from the GMA's update today, what we're left with is a diluted version of the CoS 08 first "offered" in 2007. Speech marks because it was never offered in the first place. It disadvantaged the majority so the GC could not endorse it, the company knew this so made it contingent upon offering that the GC endorse it (which they couldn't)- then withdrew it, as expected.
An inferior deal is now being offered by the company without any need for the AOA to endorse it so those who want to can take it, but the AOA cannot endorse it for the very same reasons they couldn't in 2007.
Note the lack of any mention of agreement with the AOA in the GMA's missive.
An inferior deal is now being offered by the company without any need for the AOA to endorse it so those who want to can take it, but the AOA cannot endorse it for the very same reasons they couldn't in 2007.
Note the lack of any mention of agreement with the AOA in the GMA's missive.
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Jack57....just like many of the FO's would say to my face what they have been thinking (..and anonomously posting...) the past year or two..! Grow up little boy. Swearing online is the electronic equivelant of drooling while eating. The issue is NOT age 65. Whether or not most of you rather immature people could realise it, the whole industry was moving, or has moved to 65. In nearly all cases without ANY compensation for the disadvantaged. I warned many of you months ago that the battle was lost on this issue. Instead, many of you did yourselves no favours by being rude and disprespectful to people who have been in this company for decades. The REAL issues are about seniority, basings, and all the other aspects that are reasonably open to discussion. By winding yourselves up over the 65 issue, you have let the bigger fish go. Unity is needed at this time, but i'm afraid that nearly every Captain in the company has had a gutfull of the abuse, and basically will decide to secure another dedade of flying while it's on offer. I suggest you come to terms that this issue is dead, and organise to fight the issues that can still be won. I wish things had transpired in a different fashion, but a minority of you managed to upset the 1000+ people who are ALREADY Captains. Not too smart...
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Jack57 don't make me laugh.....I mean go ahead make my day!
I agree 100% with Apple Tree Yard. Every single senior pilot I've spoken to is in favour of the deal. And many senior pilots warned people on this forum of just how this would play out. Those warnings were mocked.
In spite of the immature vitriol displayed on this forum towards the senior pilots, the ability to secure employment to 65 is a benefit to all. That is a fact! Yes your upgrade will be delayed a couple of years, but you will benefit in the end. Don't think so? Just ask your senior colleagues!
Several posters have acknowledged that people nearing 55 are justified in signing up.....that begs the question that unless one assumes he will never approach 55 one day, does the same logic not apply?
Gentlemen, I mean really, the undeniable vast majority of you will need employment beyond 55. You just can't bring yourself to admit it. You are in denial. If the vast majority of A scalers need employment beyond 55, do you seriously think that the vast majority of B, C, D scalers will retire early? Give your heads a shake.
But if bypass pay is of overriding importance to you then don't sign. The choice is yours.
On the other hand getting most of us on a single contract will make it so much easier to negotiate from a position of strength in the future. It will be more difficult for the Company to play on the COS divisions and capitalize on our infighting.
I agree 100% with Apple Tree Yard. Every single senior pilot I've spoken to is in favour of the deal. And many senior pilots warned people on this forum of just how this would play out. Those warnings were mocked.
In spite of the immature vitriol displayed on this forum towards the senior pilots, the ability to secure employment to 65 is a benefit to all. That is a fact! Yes your upgrade will be delayed a couple of years, but you will benefit in the end. Don't think so? Just ask your senior colleagues!
Several posters have acknowledged that people nearing 55 are justified in signing up.....that begs the question that unless one assumes he will never approach 55 one day, does the same logic not apply?
Gentlemen, I mean really, the undeniable vast majority of you will need employment beyond 55. You just can't bring yourself to admit it. You are in denial. If the vast majority of A scalers need employment beyond 55, do you seriously think that the vast majority of B, C, D scalers will retire early? Give your heads a shake.
But if bypass pay is of overriding importance to you then don't sign. The choice is yours.
On the other hand getting most of us on a single contract will make it so much easier to negotiate from a position of strength in the future. It will be more difficult for the Company to play on the COS divisions and capitalize on our infighting.
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Jack57, i'm going to suggest to the moderator that you have your own forum. You are a very unique and interesting individual. Your obvious maturity and calm demeanor are well suited to commanding an aircraft, and i'm sure your CRM is of the highest standard. I now logon to PPRUNE specifically in hopes that you have submitted additional posts. This is SO exciting....a new best friend. 
(please don't delay in replying....!!).
(please don't delay in replying....!!).
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Sorry ATFY...comparing Pprune posts to someones CRM and flying ability???
pathetic individual.......
You're like a dog that keeps fetching the stick....eventually you get boring.....
Enjoy your 65....
pathetic individual.......
You're like a dog that keeps fetching the stick....eventually you get boring.....
Enjoy your 65....
Last edited by Jack57; 21st Apr 2009 at 02:34.
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Raven
Hi raven,
you have stirred me into writing - again;-)
Working past 55 is a 'win' like being able to work 168hrs a month for double the pay is a win - it all depends on your perspective.
Continuing on with this analogy, we get to work 168hrs for double the pay as we are already CNs- what if all future CNs have to do the 168hrs but only get 50% more pay - is that a win? Technically yes. But ironically, as we current captains can all work for double the hours they won't need to upgrade as many guys so the amount of time the guys have to wait on FO pay increases - oops, I am double counting the negatives aren't I? ;-)
My point is, it depends on your perspective. Winning the right to secure extra pay from 59-64 is not worth the cost of working for free from 55-58 for many! At least with BPP the number of 'free' working years was reduced!
you have stirred me into writing - again;-)
Working past 55 is a 'win' like being able to work 168hrs a month for double the pay is a win - it all depends on your perspective.
Continuing on with this analogy, we get to work 168hrs for double the pay as we are already CNs- what if all future CNs have to do the 168hrs but only get 50% more pay - is that a win? Technically yes. But ironically, as we current captains can all work for double the hours they won't need to upgrade as many guys so the amount of time the guys have to wait on FO pay increases - oops, I am double counting the negatives aren't I? ;-)
My point is, it depends on your perspective. Winning the right to secure extra pay from 59-64 is not worth the cost of working for free from 55-58 for many! At least with BPP the number of 'free' working years was reduced!
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Hi NC. Always a pleasure mate!
I must admit I got a bit lost in your math. I don't know about 168 hours a month for double the pay, or was it half the pay? But I can't help but wonder why 99%...OK I exaggerate, 90%...of our colleagues who reach 55 (and A scalers to boot) need to work beyond 55.
We can bounce around theories all day long, you can spin numbers this way or that, call the senior pilots every name in the book (as some on this forum love to do) but the above numbers don't lie. For a hundred different reasons, over 90% of senior pilots want the option to stay beyond 55. We're not mixing demographics here. Those are the numbers for pilots who all work for the same Company, and who overwhelmingly agree that they need to work beyond 55. The ability to do so, is therefore a benefit.
NC. I feel I must tell you that you're misleading the junior pilots. It's sophistry to spin numbers suggesting they (B scalers) won't need to work beyond 55, when most of their senior colleagues, who on A scale, have proven otherwise. Some may be able to leave at 55, some may need to work for only a couple of years more, or maybe all 10, but the simple truth is that the vast majority will need to work beyond 55. The option to do so, is therefore a benefit.
Most other pilot unions on the planet agree. What's more, and if you still don't want to believe me, then ask any 10 of our mates over 50 what they would recommend to the junior pilots. They will tell you, as I know you've already heard, that the option to work to 65 is a benefit.
Are you advising them to choose 55? Then make no mistake, you're advising them to throw the dice.....
I must admit I got a bit lost in your math. I don't know about 168 hours a month for double the pay, or was it half the pay? But I can't help but wonder why 99%...OK I exaggerate, 90%...of our colleagues who reach 55 (and A scalers to boot) need to work beyond 55.
We can bounce around theories all day long, you can spin numbers this way or that, call the senior pilots every name in the book (as some on this forum love to do) but the above numbers don't lie. For a hundred different reasons, over 90% of senior pilots want the option to stay beyond 55. We're not mixing demographics here. Those are the numbers for pilots who all work for the same Company, and who overwhelmingly agree that they need to work beyond 55. The ability to do so, is therefore a benefit.
NC. I feel I must tell you that you're misleading the junior pilots. It's sophistry to spin numbers suggesting they (B scalers) won't need to work beyond 55, when most of their senior colleagues, who on A scale, have proven otherwise. Some may be able to leave at 55, some may need to work for only a couple of years more, or maybe all 10, but the simple truth is that the vast majority will need to work beyond 55. The option to do so, is therefore a benefit.
Most other pilot unions on the planet agree. What's more, and if you still don't want to believe me, then ask any 10 of our mates over 50 what they would recommend to the junior pilots. They will tell you, as I know you've already heard, that the option to work to 65 is a benefit.
Are you advising them to choose 55? Then make no mistake, you're advising them to throw the dice.....
Last edited by raven11; 21st Apr 2009 at 17:38.
