Direct Entry Captains
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
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vermin/popodom...your lack of awareness of your subject should be rectified before you mouth-off on PPRuNe.
You seem to miss one vital point. The KA Captains ALREADY ARE CAPTAINS. Many for years/decades even. Is there something you don't understand here? 'Have any of the KA Captains done a PCA?' Get real please. Many have been operating PCA/PCE in sims as TIRE's for years.
CX are painting KA aircraft in CX colours, some of the very same airframes these CAPTAINS are already flying at Dragonair. The only reason they have to go through this rapid command nonsense is to appease the AOA.
So just to speall it out very clearly. The KA pilots are bringing their own aircraft with them. There aren't enough KA pilots to fly these aircraft so CX pilots will get to fly these aircraft too, in addition to their existing fleet. Extra aircraft means more promotion for eager FO's. Eager FO's who hopefully do their homework before mouthing-off on PPRune.
You seem to miss one vital point. The KA Captains ALREADY ARE CAPTAINS. Many for years/decades even. Is there something you don't understand here? 'Have any of the KA Captains done a PCA?' Get real please. Many have been operating PCA/PCE in sims as TIRE's for years.
CX are painting KA aircraft in CX colours, some of the very same airframes these CAPTAINS are already flying at Dragonair. The only reason they have to go through this rapid command nonsense is to appease the AOA.
So just to speall it out very clearly. The KA pilots are bringing their own aircraft with them. There aren't enough KA pilots to fly these aircraft so CX pilots will get to fly these aircraft too, in addition to their existing fleet. Extra aircraft means more promotion for eager FO's. Eager FO's who hopefully do their homework before mouthing-off on PPRune.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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A. Le Rhone, it seems you are the one who is confused .
CX bought KA.
It was not a merger
It was a take over
The a/c as a result are owned by cx.
Some may be painted with the red worm however that bears no weight as to whose a/c they are.
As a result of the TAKE OVER ka pilots start at the bottom of the seniority list.
We are "supposedly" seniority based airline, awarding commands on seniority once suitabilty hurdles have been cleared.
Commands posted ex MAN have been given to ex ka pilots before suitably qualified cx pilots as they have been told to wait later for a course date as all courses are full to allow ka crews to be trained on CX A/C.
As a result you now have commands out of seniority
By way of compensation CX f/o's who have had courses delayed shoiuld be given bypass pay. Note the word "should". It has yet to come to pass that they see an increase in the monthly stipend.
You can put any slant on it you like but this it the REAL state of play.
CX bought KA.
It was not a merger
It was a take over
The a/c as a result are owned by cx.
Some may be painted with the red worm however that bears no weight as to whose a/c they are.
As a result of the TAKE OVER ka pilots start at the bottom of the seniority list.
We are "supposedly" seniority based airline, awarding commands on seniority once suitabilty hurdles have been cleared.
Commands posted ex MAN have been given to ex ka pilots before suitably qualified cx pilots as they have been told to wait later for a course date as all courses are full to allow ka crews to be trained on CX A/C.
As a result you now have commands out of seniority
By way of compensation CX f/o's who have had courses delayed shoiuld be given bypass pay. Note the word "should". It has yet to come to pass that they see an increase in the monthly stipend.
You can put any slant on it you like but this it the REAL state of play.
All I see is a lot of FO's and SO's complaining that the world has pulled the rug from under them!
Perhaps they should all band together and call themselves the Aircrew Officers Association.
They could bring the Managers to their knees couldn't they if they all spoke with one voice?
Of course, When you got your Command, you'd have to leave the association (AOA) because it didn't represent you any more........
Perhaps they should all band together and call themselves the Aircrew Officers Association.
They could bring the Managers to their knees couldn't they if they all spoke with one voice?
Of course, When you got your Command, you'd have to leave the association (AOA) because it didn't represent you any more........
A.L.R
If you look at it more dispassionately you would realise that to fly with CX crew members there has to be an assessment as to whether they operate to exactly the same procedures.
If you look at it more dispassionately you would realise that to fly with CX crew members there has to be an assessment as to whether they operate to exactly the same procedures.
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No More!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, NO MORE! Nothing against anyone. But you should be an F/O or S/O when you join off the street. This is just unacceptable. Please let your fleet managers and GMA and GMO and DFO that is is wrong and unacceptable.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Firewall, your arrogance is astonishing. Allow me to quote from the IFALPA Industrial manual that deals with merger processes.
The principles to be followed shall therefore be:
Jumping up and down like a 5 year old with big statements such "this is a takeover not a merger" as if it was you that actually carried out the takeover simply makes you look pathetic. You're just a number on a seniority list that happens to be bigger than our list. It also displays a complete inability to look further in to the future than the next 5 minutes - again just like my 5 year old child!
ALR has tried, it appears in vain, to explain in simple terms the shafting that KA pilots are getting. We do not want to come to CX and give up years of seniority. We were quite happy with our own operation in Dragonair, particularly after our recent 20% pay rise. (Incidentally it would be nice if you could acknowledge the increase in CX freighter salaries was due to us!) How many times do we need to say this before you hear it?
Takeover and merger history is littered with disasters precisely because of attitudes like yours. What is needed is an acknowledgement on both sides that there are concerns to the career aspirations of both groups and work towards a mutually acceptable solution. Imposing one arrogant solution on what is perceived to be the 'weaker' group can only lead to resentment, anger and long term divisiveness that harms both groups. Just take a look at the AOA's own recent history, do you really need yet another divided group or would your interests be better served by acknowledging that it is management that created the problem and not us?
KA pilots are happy to work with our new colleagues in CX and are well aware that there are sensitivities over our employment. We ask that you extend us the same courtesy.
The objective of Member Associations when faced with merger situations should be to emerge with a single pilot group that is unified in order to be effective in future collective bargaining with the employer. To achieve this objective, all parties have to have been treated fairly; otherwise the enlarged pilot group will suffer from the consequences of damaging internal splits and divisions that will last for a generation.
The principles to be followed shall therefore be:
To preserve jobs
To avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other
To maintain or improve pre-merger pay, conditions and status
To minimize detrimental changes to career expectations
To maintain the relative pre-merger seniority positions of pilots within constituent companies
To avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other
To maintain or improve pre-merger pay, conditions and status
To minimize detrimental changes to career expectations
ALR has tried, it appears in vain, to explain in simple terms the shafting that KA pilots are getting. We do not want to come to CX and give up years of seniority. We were quite happy with our own operation in Dragonair, particularly after our recent 20% pay rise. (Incidentally it would be nice if you could acknowledge the increase in CX freighter salaries was due to us!) How many times do we need to say this before you hear it?
Takeover and merger history is littered with disasters precisely because of attitudes like yours. What is needed is an acknowledgement on both sides that there are concerns to the career aspirations of both groups and work towards a mutually acceptable solution. Imposing one arrogant solution on what is perceived to be the 'weaker' group can only lead to resentment, anger and long term divisiveness that harms both groups. Just take a look at the AOA's own recent history, do you really need yet another divided group or would your interests be better served by acknowledging that it is management that created the problem and not us?
KA pilots are happy to work with our new colleagues in CX and are well aware that there are sensitivities over our employment. We ask that you extend us the same courtesy.
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Firewall, I think you will find in most cases when an airline either takes over or merges with an airline including operational routes and A/C the pilots are merged into the acquiring airlines seniority list. Anything else is pure greed on your part.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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filejw, I'm not saying I don't agree with you but I know a few AC and ex-CPA crews that would feel otherwise. For those that don't know...that's the Air Canada/Canadian (Pacific) Airlines merger/takeover.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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No, no...I've got a better idea. Because "We" at Cathay took over Dragonair (just as when the Imperial Army marched through the streets of Central in 1941), all Dragonair Captains should be made FO's and all Cathay FO's and SO's should automatically be given those positions.
It's the way of life and it's only fair really.
It's the way of life and it's only fair really.
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Very Tired, arrogance doesn't live in this cupboard.
I would have expected you to recognise the factual comment "takeover not merger" was made by very senior manager cx directly involved. You didn't. As a result, you can sprout all kinds of IFALPA manuals pertaining to merger conduct but they bear no relevance. You ask for sensitivity and a caring response to KA crews. I have no problem with that. I also do not have a problem calling a spade a spade.
I note no response from you re the cx cat A fo's who have had their commands delayed as a result. Where is the caring response?
Nowhere have I put forward that this is a situation of KA's doing yet you assert such.
As for KA being responsible for cx freight guys getting payrise - although not involved I find your assertion amusing.
Finally, let's leave your 5 year old out of the discussion. Try a mature response. I am sure he will appreciate the courtesy.
Filejw, your statement greed on my behalf bears no weight. I am not affected as have already jumped the hurdle. My colleagues however are directly affected and disadvantaged but this fact is missing in both your's and Very tired's arguement.
I would have expected you to recognise the factual comment "takeover not merger" was made by very senior manager cx directly involved. You didn't. As a result, you can sprout all kinds of IFALPA manuals pertaining to merger conduct but they bear no relevance. You ask for sensitivity and a caring response to KA crews. I have no problem with that. I also do not have a problem calling a spade a spade.
I note no response from you re the cx cat A fo's who have had their commands delayed as a result. Where is the caring response?
Nowhere have I put forward that this is a situation of KA's doing yet you assert such.
As for KA being responsible for cx freight guys getting payrise - although not involved I find your assertion amusing.
Finally, let's leave your 5 year old out of the discussion. Try a mature response. I am sure he will appreciate the courtesy.
Filejw, your statement greed on my behalf bears no weight. I am not affected as have already jumped the hurdle. My colleagues however are directly affected and disadvantaged but this fact is missing in both your's and Very tired's arguement.
Last edited by fire wall; 5th Aug 2008 at 02:57.
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...rriigghhtt Fire wall..we must call a spade a spade. We must never forget it was a TAKEOVER, (with which we used our own funds from our monthly paypackets). I think we should march all of those KA pilots off to the Stanley detention camp. Any who dare question the might of the Imperial Army should simply be shot at dawn.
How dare they complain about us assuming control of their aircraft, repainting them and forcing existing Captains to undergo Captain training!
How dare they complain about us assuming control of their aircraft, repainting them and forcing existing Captains to undergo Captain training!
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Firewall, I'm sorry to say that in your post that I responded to I didn't see any quotes around the phrase , "This is a takeover not a merger" so it would not be unreasonable to attribute that statement to you. I would be very happy to hear you say that you disagree wholeheartedly with such comments.
Yes I am sympathetic to Cat A FOs that may have their command courses delayed. I am not entirely sure what the exact situation is with these pilots but I'm sure that the reality is far different to some of the wilder statements made here. Bear in mind that KA Captains are not taking any precious CX slots, we are simply filling the slots on aircraft that we already operate. The backlog and delays for command ready FOs is presumably due to training backlogs.
You also might like to spare a thought for KA FOs, many of whom were on the cusp of a command slot in KA and now have to join the back of the pile in CX, ie they are now years away. This isn't a statement on the rights and wrongs, just asking you to consider that everyone is affected by this in some way. No one group has the monopoly on perceived disadvantage.
Finally, the recent pay rise awarded to KA pilots left us with a far superior package to that enjoyed by CX freighter pilots. During the whole debacle that passed for negotiations about the transfer (oops, opportunity) one of the counters to the TUPE argument was for CX management to increase the package on offer to something a bit closer to our KA salary. (It's actually still a pay cut for most of us). Tell me, when was the last time CX management awarded a non-negotiated pay rise out of the blue? Perhaps they were just feeling a bit generous that week?
Firewall, you are not my enemy, as I am not yours. The only way for all of us to improve our lot is to recognise that these situations are created by a management team that thrives on our division. As the new AOA president has said, we must unite behind the union and show some strength of purpose. It worked at KA, there's no reason for it not to work in CX.
Yes I am sympathetic to Cat A FOs that may have their command courses delayed. I am not entirely sure what the exact situation is with these pilots but I'm sure that the reality is far different to some of the wilder statements made here. Bear in mind that KA Captains are not taking any precious CX slots, we are simply filling the slots on aircraft that we already operate. The backlog and delays for command ready FOs is presumably due to training backlogs.
You also might like to spare a thought for KA FOs, many of whom were on the cusp of a command slot in KA and now have to join the back of the pile in CX, ie they are now years away. This isn't a statement on the rights and wrongs, just asking you to consider that everyone is affected by this in some way. No one group has the monopoly on perceived disadvantage.
Finally, the recent pay rise awarded to KA pilots left us with a far superior package to that enjoyed by CX freighter pilots. During the whole debacle that passed for negotiations about the transfer (oops, opportunity) one of the counters to the TUPE argument was for CX management to increase the package on offer to something a bit closer to our KA salary. (It's actually still a pay cut for most of us). Tell me, when was the last time CX management awarded a non-negotiated pay rise out of the blue? Perhaps they were just feeling a bit generous that week?
Firewall, you are not my enemy, as I am not yours. The only way for all of us to improve our lot is to recognise that these situations are created by a management team that thrives on our division. As the new AOA president has said, we must unite behind the union and show some strength of purpose. It worked at KA, there's no reason for it not to work in CX.
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VT
In line with your last paragraph, might I suggest that the DPA write to all those KA pilots who've chosen to take up this fantastic "opportunity" to encourage them to join the HKAOA?
In line with your last paragraph, might I suggest that the DPA write to all those KA pilots who've chosen to take up this fantastic "opportunity" to encourage them to join the HKAOA?
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It's already been done Loop. The DPA has been very proactive about ensuring a seamless transfer between the two unions. FWIW, the AOA and DPA have had a good working relationship over the last year. There are obviously some areas of difference but both sides have recognised the need to work together.
Firewall
I suspect you have not been in and around HK for a long time.
CX and KA have for the bulk of the life of KA been sister companies. Anyone who is against the KA seniority system being melded with the CX seniority system on a date of joining is straight out of Oliver Twist.
It is time for everyone to focus on the the things that unite us rather than the things that differentiate us.
Life is too short to do otherwise.
I suspect you have not been in and around HK for a long time.
CX and KA have for the bulk of the life of KA been sister companies. Anyone who is against the KA seniority system being melded with the CX seniority system on a date of joining is straight out of Oliver Twist.
It is time for everyone to focus on the the things that unite us rather than the things that differentiate us.
Life is too short to do otherwise.