Questions for some CX vets
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Questions for some CX vets
I just found out I'll be coming to CX this fall as a new SO. Have flown for American Eagle for 2.5 years so I'm used to the US way of bidding, vacations, etc. Before that, did 3.5 years at USC flying checks.
My questions (the ones you kinda want to ask while interviewing but don't want to till you get the job!) are:
1. How does vacation REALLY work? You get 21 days, which I understand. How easy is it to get on non-rev coming to the US and back? Will they schedule me the day before and after vacation, or does it end up being more like 22-28 days off?
2. Once I get to FO and get the 42 days, how does that work?
3. Is it possible to live in SIN and commute? It appears the schedules are set well in advance and I am willing to hotel it during reserve time. Doable? Frowned upon by company? We wouldn't do this for 6-12 months after hire, but are considering the option.
4. How long to ACTUALLY move up to FO? Once that happens, can I base in HKG or do they force you to the out-bases? My wife and my's biggest reason for doing this is wanting to live back in Pac Rim, where she grew up (American who grew up in SIN & SYD).
5. How good are the layover hotels? On the Europe and LAX/SFO/YVR layovers, how long are they? I've been told 24 hours by some people and 48 by others.
Thanks for your help!
My questions (the ones you kinda want to ask while interviewing but don't want to till you get the job!) are:
1. How does vacation REALLY work? You get 21 days, which I understand. How easy is it to get on non-rev coming to the US and back? Will they schedule me the day before and after vacation, or does it end up being more like 22-28 days off?
2. Once I get to FO and get the 42 days, how does that work?
3. Is it possible to live in SIN and commute? It appears the schedules are set well in advance and I am willing to hotel it during reserve time. Doable? Frowned upon by company? We wouldn't do this for 6-12 months after hire, but are considering the option.
4. How long to ACTUALLY move up to FO? Once that happens, can I base in HKG or do they force you to the out-bases? My wife and my's biggest reason for doing this is wanting to live back in Pac Rim, where she grew up (American who grew up in SIN & SYD).
5. How good are the layover hotels? On the Europe and LAX/SFO/YVR layovers, how long are they? I've been told 24 hours by some people and 48 by others.
Thanks for your help!
Last edited by bretofdfw; 25th Jul 2008 at 14:08.
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Other questions
Thanks for your replies. That was a lot of info....We're very comfortable with the move to HKG. Like I said, my wife grew up in Pac Rim and we have spent a lot of time in both HKG & SIN coming to see family. We'll be fine with either one long-term but realize we might want to live close to family once there are kids.
I really don't want to leave HKG base, more wondering if they might ever make me. The idea of spending 25 years flying ONLY to HKG from an out-base is not why I got into this.
1. Do you have any idea what the starting points total is on vacation bidding? Not a big deal, just wondering. That is so different than typical US bidding.
2. What is the typical progression to FO & Captain (only interested in passenger fleet, not cargo)? I will start on 744 (hopefully) with a chance at 346 and would like to stay on 744 if possible (just my dream plane, I guess). Can you stay as SO on 744 until enough seniority to move to FO on 744 or do they force you to 330/777 as FO? If you are eligible for FO seat, do they tell you which plane you'll fly, you bid it, random assignment? What is time from starting with CX to Captain on 744? I've heard 12-15 years.
"Normally, you can request days off each month some weeks before the roster comes out. You can also attached some more days off in front of or behind the leave. Not guaranteed, but happens most of the time. You can also request some joker day off (a 5-day block and a 2-day block) every 4 months. It is guaranteed."
3. What the heck is a joker day? I have never heard the term! Is this just a thing where you say I want these 5 days off and you get them once every 4 months? I'm assuming that won't work on holidays but it's nice for birthdays/anniversaries.
4. Can you tell me a little more about day off requests? Let's say I wanted the 5th - 8th off, what chance is there of that outside the "joker" day deal?
5. My experience is flying 2-3 day trips the last couple of years and, prior to that, doing almost all evening/nighttime out-and-backs. How hard are the long-haul trips physically with 24-36 hour layovers? I'm torn since I'd just assume come home as fast as possible but realize year after year of this will wear some.
6. What is reserve like? My experience at AA Eagle was pretty bad with reserve early on, but I got a line bid in my 5th month. Not too tough. One of the things that worried us was the fact you seem to stay on reserve a few days a month forever at CX rather than doing it for a while at first, then being done. The couple of people I talked to seemed to like the fact the duty is spread around everyone and it seemed like not too bad a trade-off in the end.
Thanks again. Don't mean to pepper you with too many questions but when I asked a little during interview process, the look on face was not great. Decided to back off, get job, and see how it goes. I'm glad we're coming, though. These are just the details that help us do a little thinking through what life will really be like.
I really don't want to leave HKG base, more wondering if they might ever make me. The idea of spending 25 years flying ONLY to HKG from an out-base is not why I got into this.
1. Do you have any idea what the starting points total is on vacation bidding? Not a big deal, just wondering. That is so different than typical US bidding.
2. What is the typical progression to FO & Captain (only interested in passenger fleet, not cargo)? I will start on 744 (hopefully) with a chance at 346 and would like to stay on 744 if possible (just my dream plane, I guess). Can you stay as SO on 744 until enough seniority to move to FO on 744 or do they force you to 330/777 as FO? If you are eligible for FO seat, do they tell you which plane you'll fly, you bid it, random assignment? What is time from starting with CX to Captain on 744? I've heard 12-15 years.
"Normally, you can request days off each month some weeks before the roster comes out. You can also attached some more days off in front of or behind the leave. Not guaranteed, but happens most of the time. You can also request some joker day off (a 5-day block and a 2-day block) every 4 months. It is guaranteed."
3. What the heck is a joker day? I have never heard the term! Is this just a thing where you say I want these 5 days off and you get them once every 4 months? I'm assuming that won't work on holidays but it's nice for birthdays/anniversaries.
4. Can you tell me a little more about day off requests? Let's say I wanted the 5th - 8th off, what chance is there of that outside the "joker" day deal?
5. My experience is flying 2-3 day trips the last couple of years and, prior to that, doing almost all evening/nighttime out-and-backs. How hard are the long-haul trips physically with 24-36 hour layovers? I'm torn since I'd just assume come home as fast as possible but realize year after year of this will wear some.
6. What is reserve like? My experience at AA Eagle was pretty bad with reserve early on, but I got a line bid in my 5th month. Not too tough. One of the things that worried us was the fact you seem to stay on reserve a few days a month forever at CX rather than doing it for a while at first, then being done. The couple of people I talked to seemed to like the fact the duty is spread around everyone and it seemed like not too bad a trade-off in the end.
Thanks again. Don't mean to pepper you with too many questions but when I asked a little during interview process, the look on face was not great. Decided to back off, get job, and see how it goes. I'm glad we're coming, though. These are just the details that help us do a little thinking through what life will really be like.
Last edited by bretofdfw; 25th Jul 2008 at 19:34.
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Joker days
If you have never seen a set up where the clowns run the circus -
- then thats why you may not have seen Joker days!
However, in reality, it is merely another day-off or group of days-off
that one can bid for periodically, that has a higher priority in the
days-off bidding system. Good for wedding anniversaries, 2nd wedding plans, graduations of 3rd wifes kids from uni etc.
In practice, surprisingly reliable.
- then thats why you may not have seen Joker days!
However, in reality, it is merely another day-off or group of days-off
that one can bid for periodically, that has a higher priority in the
days-off bidding system. Good for wedding anniversaries, 2nd wedding plans, graduations of 3rd wifes kids from uni etc.
In practice, surprisingly reliable.
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You're in for a shock
Sorry bretofdfw, I don't want to be a Negative Nellie, but you desperately need to stop assuming that this company runs anything like a US/Canadian/Aussie/European outfit.
For example, regarding your question about commuting, the company seem to tolerate it, but there is absolutely no support for commuters that get stranded, unless you are on a confirmed ticket, which specifically means NOT STANDBY. You are expected to be available for your duty, or it's "morning tea" at the fleet office. Not only that, you are expected to be in HK in enough time to be adequately rested for your next duty, which normally means the day before. That one is a bit harder to police, but if you get caught, as some people have, expect a call from the fleet office.
Quote: I'm used to the US way of bidding
Response: What the hell is bidding? You get what you are given, and you're expected to do it.
There's a request system, which can be, in the words of Mephisto, "In practice, surprisingly reliable." However, it is stressed that it is a REQUEST system - nothing guaranteed.
Although leave (vacation for US people) is a contractual right, it is allocated on a points system, which it seems others have described to you. However, if your requested leave weeks are not available because they are fully subscribed, the company can/will allocate leave to you at a time of their choosing. I know some people who have not had leave for well over a year, and can't get any for the foreseeable future.
Upgrade to FO - not on the -400, unless you want to go freighter. You used to be told which fleet you were upgrading to, end of story, but I believe there is a little bit of flex for fleet preferences. However, unlike other companies, they won't take kindly to you sitting & waiting as an SO for ever to wait for a specific type upgrade. Believe me, once you've been an SO in CX for more than 18 months, you'll be itching for the first available upgrade.
Time to FO varies depending on company requirements. It has gone above 4 years, and some times less than 2 years. With all the new DEFOs, I'd make an educated guess that any new joiner SO today will take 4+ years to FO.
Long haul layovers are normally 24 hrs unless it is illegal under the FTLS, in which case they are forced to make it 48 hrs if it is a daily service, but if it is more than daily, they try to juggle you around to give you less (eg 36hrs). And I do mean forced, if they could save $2 on allowances, they would, they don't care about our rest requirements, or common sense, other than what the FTLS makes them do. Regarding the hotels, they vary. Some (Melbourne springs to mind) are excellent, yet some (Vancouver springs to mind) have very few redeeming features.
Reserve - at Eagle, you might well have been able to bid a non reserve line after a while, but not here. Scroll up a few lines, and re-read my comment on the request system. They try to have this concept of "fair share reserve" which doesn't mean company wide, it means same fleet, rank & base. Very messy, and hard to follow.
Contractually, you are required to do 30 days rostered reserve a year (usually 5 blocks of 6 days) for no credit, after that, there is a partial credit for rostered reserve. However, if they take a trip off you, although they don't necessarily have to give you reserve in place, in practice, you'll get reserve, and that is no credit reserve. This doesn't really come into play much as an SO, but once you're an FO, look out! Trips can be taken off you if there is a change of type for that day, or if it is changed to training, or if the flight is cancelled/merged. As an FO or Capt, you'll also have trips taken off you to avoid going way into overtime, which they're not supposed to do, but they lie & tell you it's training etc etc.
Does this make sense??
For example, regarding your question about commuting, the company seem to tolerate it, but there is absolutely no support for commuters that get stranded, unless you are on a confirmed ticket, which specifically means NOT STANDBY. You are expected to be available for your duty, or it's "morning tea" at the fleet office. Not only that, you are expected to be in HK in enough time to be adequately rested for your next duty, which normally means the day before. That one is a bit harder to police, but if you get caught, as some people have, expect a call from the fleet office.
Quote: I'm used to the US way of bidding
Response: What the hell is bidding? You get what you are given, and you're expected to do it.
There's a request system, which can be, in the words of Mephisto, "In practice, surprisingly reliable." However, it is stressed that it is a REQUEST system - nothing guaranteed.
Although leave (vacation for US people) is a contractual right, it is allocated on a points system, which it seems others have described to you. However, if your requested leave weeks are not available because they are fully subscribed, the company can/will allocate leave to you at a time of their choosing. I know some people who have not had leave for well over a year, and can't get any for the foreseeable future.
Upgrade to FO - not on the -400, unless you want to go freighter. You used to be told which fleet you were upgrading to, end of story, but I believe there is a little bit of flex for fleet preferences. However, unlike other companies, they won't take kindly to you sitting & waiting as an SO for ever to wait for a specific type upgrade. Believe me, once you've been an SO in CX for more than 18 months, you'll be itching for the first available upgrade.
Time to FO varies depending on company requirements. It has gone above 4 years, and some times less than 2 years. With all the new DEFOs, I'd make an educated guess that any new joiner SO today will take 4+ years to FO.
Long haul layovers are normally 24 hrs unless it is illegal under the FTLS, in which case they are forced to make it 48 hrs if it is a daily service, but if it is more than daily, they try to juggle you around to give you less (eg 36hrs). And I do mean forced, if they could save $2 on allowances, they would, they don't care about our rest requirements, or common sense, other than what the FTLS makes them do. Regarding the hotels, they vary. Some (Melbourne springs to mind) are excellent, yet some (Vancouver springs to mind) have very few redeeming features.
Reserve - at Eagle, you might well have been able to bid a non reserve line after a while, but not here. Scroll up a few lines, and re-read my comment on the request system. They try to have this concept of "fair share reserve" which doesn't mean company wide, it means same fleet, rank & base. Very messy, and hard to follow.
Contractually, you are required to do 30 days rostered reserve a year (usually 5 blocks of 6 days) for no credit, after that, there is a partial credit for rostered reserve. However, if they take a trip off you, although they don't necessarily have to give you reserve in place, in practice, you'll get reserve, and that is no credit reserve. This doesn't really come into play much as an SO, but once you're an FO, look out! Trips can be taken off you if there is a change of type for that day, or if it is changed to training, or if the flight is cancelled/merged. As an FO or Capt, you'll also have trips taken off you to avoid going way into overtime, which they're not supposed to do, but they lie & tell you it's training etc etc.
Does this make sense??
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Thanks for the informative post Broadband. I'm interested to hear more replies to this topic as well.
I have 2 additional, perhaps related, questions:
- If your trip is replaced with reserve, then what is your callout time?
- I see that a roster typically has an "A" day before your scheduled trip - what exactly does this mean? Reserve? Again, what's the callout time? Do you need to be AT the airport, or will a few hours drive away be sufficient?
Thanks,
MF
Note: Assume a DEFO on a North American base.
I have 2 additional, perhaps related, questions:
- If your trip is replaced with reserve, then what is your callout time?
- I see that a roster typically has an "A" day before your scheduled trip - what exactly does this mean? Reserve? Again, what's the callout time? Do you need to be AT the airport, or will a few hours drive away be sufficient?
Thanks,
MF
Note: Assume a DEFO on a North American base.
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Reply to Broadband...
I get what you're saying and promise you I'm not going into this blind. Keep in mind, I worked for three years flying checks around the US 10 hours a night (6 legs, 6hrs flight time) while going to school full-time. Eagle has been a good job but the money is pretty bad, and once you've had back-to-back 10 hour days with five legs each, surrounding a 9:30 layover at the LaQuinta in Fresno...well, life just looks different at CX.
I know no job is going to be perfect, particularly these days in the airline business, but I still like flying. My dad was a 75 hour a week business guy with no life so the time off at any airline is still nice. From an American perspective, the majors simply aren't hiring here any more and most of my friends that got hired the last several years are already on furlough.
For us, we like the Pac Rim, CX appears to have good and bad to it, and the money is still pretty good when you take the HA into account. It'll be different, we know, but I have a feeling our lifestyle will improve versus Eagle pay living in Los Angeles!
Reading all the posts on here over the last few weeks, there's one thing that consistently stands out. The people who have been with CX for years see the airline as having gone down to some (or a great) extent since they joined, while newer pilots are happy(ier) to be there. It's a perspective thing, like most jobs. Trust me, any jumpseat you ride in the US, both pilots will hate the airline one day and only one will hate it the next.
I'm still very thankful for the good and bad info since it only helps all of us understand what's ahead, what to look out for, etc. Any more answers to my earlier posts is greatly appreciated
Thanks!
I know no job is going to be perfect, particularly these days in the airline business, but I still like flying. My dad was a 75 hour a week business guy with no life so the time off at any airline is still nice. From an American perspective, the majors simply aren't hiring here any more and most of my friends that got hired the last several years are already on furlough.
For us, we like the Pac Rim, CX appears to have good and bad to it, and the money is still pretty good when you take the HA into account. It'll be different, we know, but I have a feeling our lifestyle will improve versus Eagle pay living in Los Angeles!
Reading all the posts on here over the last few weeks, there's one thing that consistently stands out. The people who have been with CX for years see the airline as having gone down to some (or a great) extent since they joined, while newer pilots are happy(ier) to be there. It's a perspective thing, like most jobs. Trust me, any jumpseat you ride in the US, both pilots will hate the airline one day and only one will hate it the next.
I'm still very thankful for the good and bad info since it only helps all of us understand what's ahead, what to look out for, etc. Any more answers to my earlier posts is greatly appreciated
Thanks!
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bret
I can't stress what was mentioned earlier. This is nothing like a north american airline.
There is no bidding!!
You can request, but that's all it is... you take what you are given and not a good idea to turn things down.
there are no labour laws to protect us and check and training is severe.
all in all not a bad gig though....
I can't stress what was mentioned earlier. This is nothing like a north american airline.
There is no bidding!!
You can request, but that's all it is... you take what you are given and not a good idea to turn things down.
there are no labour laws to protect us and check and training is severe.
all in all not a bad gig though....
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Beware the Star Chamber
Check & training can be very severe (well put 4 driver), but even if you do a reasonable job, it doesn't end there. For many assessments, the checker's word is not final, and everything is subject to a decision from a "review board", aka the Star Chamber. Beware if you have ANYTHING remotely off colour in your file, and that includes non-flying things.
I know a number of people who've been delayed on upgrades JFO - FO, command course delays ie Cat B, and of course command course failures, all because of some off-handed remark made in a report that someone on the Star Chamber latches onto as an excuse to hammer them.
I know a number of people who've been delayed on upgrades JFO - FO, command course delays ie Cat B, and of course command course failures, all because of some off-handed remark made in a report that someone on the Star Chamber latches onto as an excuse to hammer them.
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I know I am in europe and you guys seem to be comparing the company to north american airlines, but as an FO with reasonable jet time I struggle to understand why anyone should join.. being quite young i ve always looked at CX as a possibility for a long term plan, but what i read isn't cute..maybe only the bad things are stressed in here?
Last edited by fiftypercentn1; 28th Jul 2008 at 15:55.
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"can I base in HKG or do they force you to the out-bases? My wife and my's biggest reason for doing this is wanting to live back in Pac Rim"
"I get what you're saying and promise you I'm not going into this blind"
Bretofdfw, You may not be going into this blind, but with yesterdays all time high pollution record, you may need X-ray vision to see across the fragrant harbour.
"I get what you're saying and promise you I'm not going into this blind"
Bretofdfw, You may not be going into this blind, but with yesterdays all time high pollution record, you may need X-ray vision to see across the fragrant harbour.
Last edited by Svengali; 29th Jul 2008 at 03:07.
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Moose - JFO to FO entails a check ride (coded QL) and is far from automatic. Anyone know the latest pass rate?
Svengali - the company does not force you onto bases. Unless I'm mistaken you can stay in HK until you retire. 55 currently. Many commute to Phuket, a few to SIN and one I know to CEB. Tough unless your on the - 400 though.
Svengali - the company does not force you onto bases. Unless I'm mistaken you can stay in HK until you retire. 55 currently. Many commute to Phuket, a few to SIN and one I know to CEB. Tough unless your on the - 400 though.
