Quit the AOA and join the DPA
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Quit the AOA and join the DPA
Ok, so ditching the AOA. Curious to know can I join the DPA instead? After all we're all one big happy family now. The AOA has been at pains to point out that seniority joined at any Swire airline should be directly transferable to Cathay. So, why not?
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Personally I would distance my self from such a move. If we go down that dark raod, the next step would be combined seniority list follwed shortly by me taking a KA330 to Chengdu.......
I joined CX not KA and as such would NOT be interested in DPA/AOA merger - different airlines with different priorities.
I would support my brothers at KA in there disputes etc just leave them on a KA list and me on my CX list, lest we play right into Swires hands.
AFL
I joined CX not KA and as such would NOT be interested in DPA/AOA merger - different airlines with different priorities.
I would support my brothers at KA in there disputes etc just leave them on a KA list and me on my CX list, lest we play right into Swires hands.
AFL
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I joined CX not KA and as such would NOT be interested in DPA/AOA merger
At the moment it's the AOA or nothing and half of CX have gone with the surprisingly cheaper latter option..................
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DPA achieved what it has through a long campaign of CC, lots of resignations and unity. We at CX are only starting on the middle leg - lots of resignations but no where near as many as KA had.
Changing unions to achieve superior outcomes is like those investors who constantly change into mutual funds that have been in the highest quartile for the last five years - invariably they under perform over the next five years. If KA guys are happy with their latest deals then they will likely have less resignations in future and more unlikely to carry out stringent CC and so are unlikely to 'out perform' over the next few years.
Stillalbatross, if you can get 2400+ of us into the DPA, or the CPU or any other political grouping, then I will gladly join with you. Its not what it is called that counts...it is what we are prepared to do. If you want to predict the future by looking into the past then yes we are doomed to failure...but then that is like driving a car looking only in the rear view mirror.
No miracles will be achieved by a new GC - even if it is far more representative than in the past. It will take unity, involvement and self sacrifice by all of us to achieve fair and equitable treatment by our coal mine owners.
Changing unions to achieve superior outcomes is like those investors who constantly change into mutual funds that have been in the highest quartile for the last five years - invariably they under perform over the next five years. If KA guys are happy with their latest deals then they will likely have less resignations in future and more unlikely to carry out stringent CC and so are unlikely to 'out perform' over the next few years.
Stillalbatross, if you can get 2400+ of us into the DPA, or the CPU or any other political grouping, then I will gladly join with you. Its not what it is called that counts...it is what we are prepared to do. If you want to predict the future by looking into the past then yes we are doomed to failure...but then that is like driving a car looking only in the rear view mirror.
No miracles will be achieved by a new GC - even if it is far more representative than in the past. It will take unity, involvement and self sacrifice by all of us to achieve fair and equitable treatment by our coal mine owners.
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The AOA is no different to a bank offering a mortgage. In this case what's been offered by "bank AOA" for 800 a month hasn't been good for me so i'd like to get a mortgage elsewhere. Others have got some very good deals off the AOA, I haven't, so I'd like the option to shop around.
Shouldn't that be allowed? Maybe I'll find another source of representation elsewhere that's better, maybe I won't. I'd like "fair and equitable treatment" and after 7 years I can see it's never going to come from the AOA.
Shouldn't that be allowed? Maybe I'll find another source of representation elsewhere that's better, maybe I won't. I'd like "fair and equitable treatment" and after 7 years I can see it's never going to come from the AOA.
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Albatross
Some more questions for you to dodge.
1. Have you ever been in the AOA?
2. If so, did you ever read any of the info the AOA put out?
3. If you have, how come you cannot get your head around the idea we have one seniority list; not one for frt and one for pax?
4. Where in this stuff have you read the AOA wants to recognise seniority from other Swire airlines? How come the KA and ASL guys have none of their seniority recognised?
Look forward to your reply......
1. Have you ever been in the AOA?
2. If so, did you ever read any of the info the AOA put out?
3. If you have, how come you cannot get your head around the idea we have one seniority list; not one for frt and one for pax?
4. Where in this stuff have you read the AOA wants to recognise seniority from other Swire airlines? How come the KA and ASL guys have none of their seniority recognised?
Look forward to your reply......
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Albatross..................apparently if you quit CX they have a position for you back home................
thats right they can't find a replacement Village idiot......................
thats right they can't find a replacement Village idiot......................
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Thanks. Unfortunately there's at least 1200 other village idiots at CX who don't want the AOA either. What's the bet that a large proportion of them would like the option to choose another representative?
I don't mind, if the AOA's been good to you then fine. But I need to change who represents me.
I don't mind, if the AOA's been good to you then fine. But I need to change who represents me.
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stillalbatross,
as you seem set on leaving I would advise you to contact the DPA and ask to join them. I would also suggest you contact the Teamsters - they seem to do very well with their negotiations. Also the scriptwriters guild have won their battle against hollywood. Not sure how the baseball players did against the team/club owners a couple of years back but I think they did OK. Also the Victorian school teachers just achieved a 20%+ payrise for over the next 3 years so give them a call.
I am sure somewhere out there there is a union ready to take your subs and will do everything in their power, including industrial action, to get you the fair and equitable treatment that you deserve and that the AOA couldn't get you. Lets just hope that some of our coal mine owners have their kids in Victorian public schools so that the teachers strike action, on your behalf, would actually result in you getting a payrise. Or maybe you are pretty sure the DPA will commence CC or even strike action to help you out!
Now back in the real world....the AOA is us - not 20 individuals that represent us...if WE want payrises then WE will need to be prepared to take action. Having been involved in two past 'talk fests', what management like to hypocritically call 'negotiations', I can tell you logic, fairness and peer airline comparison have absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a payrise. Put yourselves in their shoes...would you care how under or over paid your workers are if all they do is complain but continue to turn up to work? Seven years ago the average CX pilot achieved about 590 block hours(not factored, not credit). The average over last two years was close to 700 and given how many pilots I meet who are hitting the 900hr limit I suspect this years average will be above 700. So why should management feel compelled to give us a payrise?
Its really simple - we only get a payrise if not getting a payrise costs them more. It can only cost them more if people keep leaving and/or we make it cost more. In last years negotiations we asked for about 30+% over 3 years - obviously that was rejected and replaced with an imposed 3%(for some). Our proposal would have cost CX an equivalent amount to a small single digit increase to the fuel budget. Since then fuel prices have doubled...our cost is even less significant compared to the total cost of the operation. I suggest that if we all added about 10-20 to our new CI it would cost them more than our total pay proposal last year. Not that I am suggesting we do something as immoral and unprofessional as needlessly burning fuel. I think being immoral and unprofessional is best left to the experts - our coal mine owners.
as you seem set on leaving I would advise you to contact the DPA and ask to join them. I would also suggest you contact the Teamsters - they seem to do very well with their negotiations. Also the scriptwriters guild have won their battle against hollywood. Not sure how the baseball players did against the team/club owners a couple of years back but I think they did OK. Also the Victorian school teachers just achieved a 20%+ payrise for over the next 3 years so give them a call.
I am sure somewhere out there there is a union ready to take your subs and will do everything in their power, including industrial action, to get you the fair and equitable treatment that you deserve and that the AOA couldn't get you. Lets just hope that some of our coal mine owners have their kids in Victorian public schools so that the teachers strike action, on your behalf, would actually result in you getting a payrise. Or maybe you are pretty sure the DPA will commence CC or even strike action to help you out!
Now back in the real world....the AOA is us - not 20 individuals that represent us...if WE want payrises then WE will need to be prepared to take action. Having been involved in two past 'talk fests', what management like to hypocritically call 'negotiations', I can tell you logic, fairness and peer airline comparison have absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a payrise. Put yourselves in their shoes...would you care how under or over paid your workers are if all they do is complain but continue to turn up to work? Seven years ago the average CX pilot achieved about 590 block hours(not factored, not credit). The average over last two years was close to 700 and given how many pilots I meet who are hitting the 900hr limit I suspect this years average will be above 700. So why should management feel compelled to give us a payrise?
Its really simple - we only get a payrise if not getting a payrise costs them more. It can only cost them more if people keep leaving and/or we make it cost more. In last years negotiations we asked for about 30+% over 3 years - obviously that was rejected and replaced with an imposed 3%(for some). Our proposal would have cost CX an equivalent amount to a small single digit increase to the fuel budget. Since then fuel prices have doubled...our cost is even less significant compared to the total cost of the operation. I suggest that if we all added about 10-20 to our new CI it would cost them more than our total pay proposal last year. Not that I am suggesting we do something as immoral and unprofessional as needlessly burning fuel. I think being immoral and unprofessional is best left to the experts - our coal mine owners.
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NC, well spoken as usual (although I was surprised by your ASL comments a few months back). A man/woman is judged on what they do, not what they say.
I sense an air of expectancy from the new GC, even if it is to formally announce CC. A lot of us are genuinely fed up, looking elsewhere and are ready. You're correct when you ask for unity and that we are not a 20-member GC but all of us. However, having canvassed the members, we do need the coordinated effort missing over the past 5 years.
I'm not afraid any more; just say the word.
The Box
I sense an air of expectancy from the new GC, even if it is to formally announce CC. A lot of us are genuinely fed up, looking elsewhere and are ready. You're correct when you ask for unity and that we are not a 20-member GC but all of us. However, having canvassed the members, we do need the coordinated effort missing over the past 5 years.
I'm not afraid any more; just say the word.
The Box
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I just cant understand why people continue to defend such a worthless Association. 
I think NC's "mutual fund" theory a couple posts back comes closest to explaining it. Speculation. Since the AOA has under performed for so many years, then we should join it in the hopes that it will start to do well again? Is that it? No way to go but up? Cant get more useless than it is now?
Im afraid NC, that all you are is a great conductor, leading a small orchestra, on a sinking ship.
Welcome to the lifeboat Albatross.
I think NC's "mutual fund" theory a couple posts back comes closest to explaining it. Speculation. Since the AOA has under performed for so many years, then we should join it in the hopes that it will start to do well again? Is that it? No way to go but up? Cant get more useless than it is now?
Im afraid NC, that all you are is a great conductor, leading a small orchestra, on a sinking ship.
Welcome to the lifeboat Albatross.
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iLuvPX - your name sums it all up, sit back relax and let someone else do the dirty. Any good associations you'd care to join with albatross?
AFL
AFL
Iluvpax and stillalbatross,
I don't suppose you'd consider giving to charity the equivalent of your AOA sub so as not to be a freeloader on the improvements the AOA have managed to get (not to mention the decrements they have stopped)?
I don't suppose you'd consider giving to charity the equivalent of your AOA sub so as not to be a freeloader on the improvements the AOA have managed to get (not to mention the decrements they have stopped)?
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Oh yeah LazyB, im just loaded down with all the benefits the AOA has brought about. Im drowning in excess, along with everyone else:
The A-Scalers just love the pay rise you have won for them over the last decade.
The C-Scalers are tickled pink over the lower conditions you negotiated for them.
Everyone is pleased at the way you failed to defend the seniority list by allowing DECs. Bravo.
The 49er's just declared the AOA Best Friends Forever!!! They love the way you capitulated and sold them out...for the second time...to the company.
I could go on...but its a familiar theme, im sure you can fill in the rest.
Oh, and to be fair. I just loved the individually wrapped sandwiches you organized for the crew a few years back. You guys are so safety conscious. How cute.
The A-Scalers just love the pay rise you have won for them over the last decade.
The C-Scalers are tickled pink over the lower conditions you negotiated for them.
Everyone is pleased at the way you failed to defend the seniority list by allowing DECs. Bravo.
The 49er's just declared the AOA Best Friends Forever!!! They love the way you capitulated and sold them out...for the second time...to the company.
I could go on...but its a familiar theme, im sure you can fill in the rest.
Oh, and to be fair. I just loved the individually wrapped sandwiches you organized for the crew a few years back. You guys are so safety conscious. How cute.