Typhoon.
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To my knowledge, if you file an airport as an alternate then they have to take you regardless. If the bays are full then they can park you on the taxiways if need be.
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To my knowledge, if you file an airport as an alternate then they have to take you regardless. If the bays are full then they can park you on the taxiways if need be.
?
Cool as a moosp
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Good one bekolblokage, we should send this to all the usual alternates and show them what can be done.
But I feel here that the development of the aviation industry has overtaken the original concept of an alternate. From those heady days of Bermuda 2 and twenty movements a day the alternate conditions are somewhat changed.
As a pilot in those days, if my destination was a bit dodgey , I was always able to go to my alternate, where I might land. I might then disembark passengers and crew, take twelve hours of rest in a good hotel and then continue the next day if the conditions permitted. If I needed only fuel, that was immediately available and within an hour we were on our way.
Fat chance in 2008. There are so many aircraft in the air with so few runways available that the closing of one major airport in most areas of high density traffic will cause major disruption. I do not have the figures here, but presumably when one airport that has 50 movements per hour closes or is only capable of landing say 10% of normal traffic, then 22-25 aircraft that are already airborne need to go somewhere else. To airports that are already slot limited??
A recent Asian diversion case involving several aircraft caused five to seven hour delays, due to visa requirements for the relief crew being flown in. Then crew rest requirements kicked in and no one was allowed to leave the aircraft.
Even if passengers had been allowed off, there were no hotel beds for 1000 passengers within 300km. Some alternate...
A classic case of which I am familiar is Tokyo NRT. If you file Haneda as your alternate, what are your chances of getting a landing slot there? The airport is already slot limited by domestic traffic, so if NRT (effectively single runway until the USA allows Japan to buy Alaskan oil, but let's not go there right now) is closed, by weather or earthquake, where are the thirty odd aircraft in the next hours arrival sequence to go? Most transpac do not have Nagoya fuel and the various military bases around Tokyo that the American carriers say they have "up their sleeve" will fill up in a heartbeat.
As a wise mentor of mine said, the next civil aviation planned ditching will be in Tokyo bay.
We really need to look at the alternate system that we use these days. It was designed for an air traffic flow that no longer exists, and is woefully inadequete for the traffic densities of today. This can start at line operations level but will no doubt require IATA intervention.
Money will be involved. The better financed airlines will be able to pay for and book slots for alternates at convenient airports, requiring less fuel reserves. Less well financed airlines, (not necessarily low cost airlines) will not be able to buy "diversion futures", as they cannot now afford to buy fuel futures, and will suffer the penalty.
The market wins. What do you think?
But I feel here that the development of the aviation industry has overtaken the original concept of an alternate. From those heady days of Bermuda 2 and twenty movements a day the alternate conditions are somewhat changed.
As a pilot in those days, if my destination was a bit dodgey , I was always able to go to my alternate, where I might land. I might then disembark passengers and crew, take twelve hours of rest in a good hotel and then continue the next day if the conditions permitted. If I needed only fuel, that was immediately available and within an hour we were on our way.
Fat chance in 2008. There are so many aircraft in the air with so few runways available that the closing of one major airport in most areas of high density traffic will cause major disruption. I do not have the figures here, but presumably when one airport that has 50 movements per hour closes or is only capable of landing say 10% of normal traffic, then 22-25 aircraft that are already airborne need to go somewhere else. To airports that are already slot limited??
A recent Asian diversion case involving several aircraft caused five to seven hour delays, due to visa requirements for the relief crew being flown in. Then crew rest requirements kicked in and no one was allowed to leave the aircraft.
Even if passengers had been allowed off, there were no hotel beds for 1000 passengers within 300km. Some alternate...
A classic case of which I am familiar is Tokyo NRT. If you file Haneda as your alternate, what are your chances of getting a landing slot there? The airport is already slot limited by domestic traffic, so if NRT (effectively single runway until the USA allows Japan to buy Alaskan oil, but let's not go there right now) is closed, by weather or earthquake, where are the thirty odd aircraft in the next hours arrival sequence to go? Most transpac do not have Nagoya fuel and the various military bases around Tokyo that the American carriers say they have "up their sleeve" will fill up in a heartbeat.
As a wise mentor of mine said, the next civil aviation planned ditching will be in Tokyo bay.
We really need to look at the alternate system that we use these days. It was designed for an air traffic flow that no longer exists, and is woefully inadequete for the traffic densities of today. This can start at line operations level but will no doubt require IATA intervention.
Money will be involved. The better financed airlines will be able to pay for and book slots for alternates at convenient airports, requiring less fuel reserves. Less well financed airlines, (not necessarily low cost airlines) will not be able to buy "diversion futures", as they cannot now afford to buy fuel futures, and will suffer the penalty.
The market wins. What do you think?
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"It was designed for . . . . . . that no longer exists, and is woefully inadequete for . . . . . of today."
Sadly, this could apply to most facets of modern aviation. So much of what we do in training and flight ops is no longer valid but we do it anyway because the industry is so fearfull of change. "1000 to altitude", what a redundant call.
The diversions I have been involved in have turned nasty not because of traffic levels or landing slots but because of crap exscuses like "no parking" or "CIQ not available". Bollocks, we filed this airport as an alternate, we are landing. QED.
Sadly, this could apply to most facets of modern aviation. So much of what we do in training and flight ops is no longer valid but we do it anyway because the industry is so fearfull of change. "1000 to altitude", what a redundant call.
The diversions I have been involved in have turned nasty not because of traffic levels or landing slots but because of crap exscuses like "no parking" or "CIQ not available". Bollocks, we filed this airport as an alternate, we are landing. QED.
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We would like to thank all the pilots who worked for the greater interest of “The Cathay Pacific Group” during the Typhoon. You have saved “The Cathay Pacific Group” a tremendous amount of money.
Even though we had over 20 diversions, the Hong Kong Airport Authority and Ourselves still considered it safe to continue operations. We will not be proactive with the decision to stop operations (that would cost money), as we will leave that mostly to the Captains of the day. If there is an error it will be considered pilot error and be dealt with accordingly. If Captains fail to operate we will have a chat to those Captains to know why and the review board will judge if it is justifiable.
We would like to thank those Captains on ULH flights that used discretion to the maximum because if you didn’t those passengers would have been stranded. It also means more pilots available for the recovery operations by not using pilots on reserve.
We would like to thank all the Captains that used discretion to reduce rest to help IOC and Crew Control to put the operations back on track.
We would like to thank all the pilots that landed in extreme circumstances and struggled through the turbulence and landed. You saved us a tremendous amount of money by not diverting. Less diversions means more money for my bonus.
It just shows the “Can Do” attitude of most of our Pilots, expect for a few bad apples lurking around on Pprune.
If you continue to be good little pilots, there may be some extra profit share next year (and some goodwill payment) if we don’t change the formula again. No pay rise as we don’t believe the pilots deserve it and there is no reason to justify it.
To My Pay rise and My Bonus.
The Management.
Even though we had over 20 diversions, the Hong Kong Airport Authority and Ourselves still considered it safe to continue operations. We will not be proactive with the decision to stop operations (that would cost money), as we will leave that mostly to the Captains of the day. If there is an error it will be considered pilot error and be dealt with accordingly. If Captains fail to operate we will have a chat to those Captains to know why and the review board will judge if it is justifiable.
We would like to thank those Captains on ULH flights that used discretion to the maximum because if you didn’t those passengers would have been stranded. It also means more pilots available for the recovery operations by not using pilots on reserve.
We would like to thank all the Captains that used discretion to reduce rest to help IOC and Crew Control to put the operations back on track.
We would like to thank all the pilots that landed in extreme circumstances and struggled through the turbulence and landed. You saved us a tremendous amount of money by not diverting. Less diversions means more money for my bonus.
It just shows the “Can Do” attitude of most of our Pilots, expect for a few bad apples lurking around on Pprune.
If you continue to be good little pilots, there may be some extra profit share next year (and some goodwill payment) if we don’t change the formula again. No pay rise as we don’t believe the pilots deserve it and there is no reason to justify it.
To My Pay rise and My Bonus.
The Management.
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I see people giving the 
to HKATC.I wonder how many controllers got the call from their management,to stay at work or do extra hours for nothing.
I got a call once from the sup,15 mins after I got home,to get back in there.Fortunately I had a beer in one hand,and the answering machine switched on.Nil response there.
to HKATC.I wonder how many controllers got the call from their management,to stay at work or do extra hours for nothing.I got a call once from the sup,15 mins after I got home,to get back in there.Fortunately I had a beer in one hand,and the answering machine switched on.Nil response there.
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Mr Management,
I have read some of your posts and chuckled but PLEASE this thread is a genuine well done thread to the professionals you employ and most of all to HK ATC.
Please treat this as neutral ground and less of the sarcasm because ultimately it all came down to safety on the day and a professional job done by all!
Cheers
Fac6
I have read some of your posts and chuckled but PLEASE this thread is a genuine well done thread to the professionals you employ and most of all to HK ATC.
Please treat this as neutral ground and less of the sarcasm because ultimately it all came down to safety on the day and a professional job done by all!
Cheers
Fac6
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Sarcasm
Sadly what you fail to understand you pric&s is that THE MANAGEMENT is, and indeed, always has been doing is taking the piss; and indeed will contnue to do so.It's called sarcasm , gettit, a well known British trait,,
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Yeah I have to add my thanks to ATC. Kept a cool head in very tough conditions. Good work guys. Pleasure to work with you.
I know it is a big ask when we ask about our expected release time in those conditions and we hate to make your work tougher by doing so. Much of the time we just want to know if we can make it out before our duty period expires.
BA
I know it is a big ask when we ask about our expected release time in those conditions and we hate to make your work tougher by doing so. Much of the time we just want to know if we can make it out before our duty period expires.
BA
The Reverend
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Management, were you by any chance the flight engineer on an L1011 approach to RW 13 in Kai Tak, very poorly excecuted by the LH PF who turned around after a hairy landing and remarked; "did you notice the bloody sheer by the Cheker Board?" The FE replied; "yes, sheer incompetence".
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FYI they also said MFM was not taking any diversions, but we arrived safely at approx 20.30 and saw only about 3 other acft there. Go figure.... Although is it true that CX will not divert to rwy16 at MFM (a size problem?!)?
