implication of 3 man ULH?
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 601
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From: England
Well, when you're the muggins next time, wait 'til you get into the hotel, and try this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/print/science/humanbody/sleep/tmt/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/print/science/humanbody/sleep/tmt/
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 163
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From: Hong Kong
3 man ULH, RA65, DEFO's, COS08 and other matters are just popping up so much in order to take focus away from the pay issue. You know, the pay issue that was supposed to be addressed once we got housing and RP's sorted out. Now rumours abound that the housing is going to change. What else will come up? It's all not only diverting us from pay issues but is creating even more division within the ranks. Well done to CX management and their industrial advisors....
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 48
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From: in time anda space
retread 7
I don't know if you are right or NC. Can you please decipher the following from RP07?
2.1 The Period of Validity of this agreement is for a twenty month period from 1st May 2007 to 31st December 2008
2.2 At the end of the Period of Validity, the agreement will be automatically renewed in its entirety for a further period of two years and will remain in full force and effect unless either party gives notice to the other in accordance with section 27 save that the Period of Validity shall then be for a two year period from 1st January 2009 to 31st December 2010.
Section 27
27.1 During the Period of Validity of the Agreement, either party to the Agreement may give notice of its intention to terminate the Agreement at the end of the Period of the Period of Validity by giving to the other party not less than three (3) months' written notice of such intent.
27.2 Where notice in accordance with 27.1 is given, the Agreement will remain in full force and effect until the end of the Period of Validity.
So what happens if CX says it wants to terminate? What is our fall back position?
2.1 The Period of Validity of this agreement is for a twenty month period from 1st May 2007 to 31st December 2008
2.2 At the end of the Period of Validity, the agreement will be automatically renewed in its entirety for a further period of two years and will remain in full force and effect unless either party gives notice to the other in accordance with section 27 save that the Period of Validity shall then be for a two year period from 1st January 2009 to 31st December 2010.
Section 27
27.1 During the Period of Validity of the Agreement, either party to the Agreement may give notice of its intention to terminate the Agreement at the end of the Period of the Period of Validity by giving to the other party not less than three (3) months' written notice of such intent.
27.2 Where notice in accordance with 27.1 is given, the Agreement will remain in full force and effect until the end of the Period of Validity.
So what happens if CX says it wants to terminate? What is our fall back position?
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 651
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From: Hong Kong
Well putting on my bush lawyer hat I humbly suggest I am right and retread 7 is wrong. If you read the preceding sections from RP07 (thanks Hiro) you will see that either party can terminate the agreement iaw section 27. The additional bit of para 2.2 "...save that the Period of Validity shall then be for a two year period from 1st January 2009 to 31st December 2010" is referring to the agreement being renewed but obviously with a new Period of Validity.
That is - if the agreement is renewed in entirety then it is exactly the same EXCEPT for the Period of Validity - which will be for the 2 years vice the 20 month previous validity. If the agreement is not renewed the "...save that" section does not apply.
Bottom line, either party can terminate RP07 in writing by 30 Sep 08, and then we would be back to Company Policy and AFTLS as of 1/1/09 - clear as mud?
That is - if the agreement is renewed in entirety then it is exactly the same EXCEPT for the Period of Validity - which will be for the 2 years vice the 20 month previous validity. If the agreement is not renewed the "...save that" section does not apply.
Bottom line, either party can terminate RP07 in writing by 30 Sep 08, and then we would be back to Company Policy and AFTLS as of 1/1/09 - clear as mud?
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 41
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From: Jet
Thanks to all the helpful ones who say "but we do 3 crew to HKG". But in order to do a proper comparison lets have all the information shall we. For example:
How many such 3 crew long haul per month can you be rostered and are typically rostered?
How long are your layovers in HKG?
What is your minimum days off after such a trip?
Do you do "W"s (back to back long haul trips to HKG)?
What percentage of flying per month is long haul?
A typical CX based pilot will do 3 to 4 such round trips to HKG per month. A lot are on super-compact rosters which means they can do 2 round trips back to back (and seeing how tired these guys get on the second trip is, to say the least, "interesting"). Days off at home may be as little as 3 before they get the pleasure of doing it all over again and the layover between sectors is normally between 24 and 39 hours (one local night).
I can't wait to hear how many European legacy carriers roster like that!
How many such 3 crew long haul per month can you be rostered and are typically rostered?
How long are your layovers in HKG?
What is your minimum days off after such a trip?
Do you do "W"s (back to back long haul trips to HKG)?
What percentage of flying per month is long haul?
A typical CX based pilot will do 3 to 4 such round trips to HKG per month. A lot are on super-compact rosters which means they can do 2 round trips back to back (and seeing how tired these guys get on the second trip is, to say the least, "interesting"). Days off at home may be as little as 3 before they get the pleasure of doing it all over again and the layover between sectors is normally between 24 and 39 hours (one local night).
I can't wait to hear how many European legacy carriers roster like that!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 163
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From: Hong Kong
Agreed SFGDOG. But as far as the W patterns go, that is a lifestyle choice. I have many friends doing the W pattern thing. A few even complain about how tired they are during those patterns. I very quickly cut them off and remind them it was THEIR choice.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 101
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From: Mostly Harmless
rick.shaw
I know you're referring to compact rosters, but either way some of us didn't have the choice. We're based, voted but were ordered to re-vote and now we based crew are suffering from long-term fatigue. Please, I'm not after the sympathy vote, this is a statement of fact.
Yes, we can get rostered for 3 ULH trips per month before overtime kicks in. Seventy per cent of the flying is in the dark, one assumes a nocturnal lifestyle in Hong Kong out of necessity. By the time you have done 3 ULH trips each month with only 2 days off in between, you are somewhat jaded to say the least.
Other short-haul carriers get 4 or 5 days off in between patterns. Why we threw away the protection of 5-4-3 is really one for the history books. The other comments listed here are valid: first, if we are going to go down the 3-man ULH route then we need adequate rest in between; finally, if we are going to combine 3-man ULH with the present rostering practices, I will have no choice but to vote with my feet. I can't take this any more.
BB
I know you're referring to compact rosters, but either way some of us didn't have the choice. We're based, voted but were ordered to re-vote and now we based crew are suffering from long-term fatigue. Please, I'm not after the sympathy vote, this is a statement of fact.
Yes, we can get rostered for 3 ULH trips per month before overtime kicks in. Seventy per cent of the flying is in the dark, one assumes a nocturnal lifestyle in Hong Kong out of necessity. By the time you have done 3 ULH trips each month with only 2 days off in between, you are somewhat jaded to say the least.
Other short-haul carriers get 4 or 5 days off in between patterns. Why we threw away the protection of 5-4-3 is really one for the history books. The other comments listed here are valid: first, if we are going to go down the 3-man ULH route then we need adequate rest in between; finally, if we are going to combine 3-man ULH with the present rostering practices, I will have no choice but to vote with my feet. I can't take this any more.
BB
