Fuel Critical
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Fuel Critical
Just wonder, when we get a piece of paper hand to us by the supervisor saying "CPAxxx fuel critical", what does it mean?
What do you want me as ATC to do? Can I not vector you or hold you now? No supervisor can ever give me a straght answer.
How much fuel it means you have left?
I once tell UAL turn right 30 degree for spacing and he comes back with "Hey, didn't the company tell you were fuel critical!" What can I say???
P.S. Good to see CPA give you guys a good bonus this year. Maybe they can convince Govt to give HK ATC one too for helping with there profit.
What do you want me as ATC to do? Can I not vector you or hold you now? No supervisor can ever give me a straght answer.
How much fuel it means you have left?
I once tell UAL turn right 30 degree for spacing and he comes back with "Hey, didn't the company tell you were fuel critical!" What can I say???
P.S. Good to see CPA give you guys a good bonus this year. Maybe they can convince Govt to give HK ATC one too for helping with there profit.
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Ask CPAxxx if they are declaring an emergency. If not then treat them as you would normal traffic. If CX want to put passengers on instead of fuel that is their problem, not yours.
Of all the long haul flights (god forbid you be fuel crit on short haul) that I have operated in CX I can honestly say that less than 0.1% have burnt more than CFP cont when I find myself approaching the HKG FIR
Of all the long haul flights (god forbid you be fuel crit on short haul) that I have operated in CX I can honestly say that less than 0.1% have burnt more than CFP cont when I find myself approaching the HKG FIR
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Hello Suzie! If a flight is fuel critical, the pilots are probably a little nervous about 1) doing a full arrival route, and 2) any vectors. I would suggest that when a fuel critical flight first checks on with you, you tell them your plan for the flight, such as planned track miles or location of traffic they are following. If you have to give them a slight vector for spacing, calm the pilots' fears by telling them "turn 30 degrees right, SHORT vector for spacing" so they know that you're not planning on vectoring them all the way to Shanghai before a turn to final.
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You can say "attention all traffic take up the hold R/H pattern, CATHAYxxx is fuel critical as the supervisor just handed me a piece of paper saying so, CATHAYxxx clear to land, contact tower 118.4 established, and the rest of you CATHAY invented aviation so that's that!" 
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Suzie Wong.... Good Question,some not very considered answers.
Fuel critical is like a little bit pregnant. If you choose, or are pressured by your company to carry light loads that is your choice. In many parts of the world, 'FUEL EMERGENCY and 'MEDICAL EMERGENCY' are the two phrases that get priority. For obvious reasons.
Now, can someone please, in 'REAL TERMS' answer Suzies question.
Fuel critical is like a little bit pregnant. If you choose, or are pressured by your company to carry light loads that is your choice. In many parts of the world, 'FUEL EMERGENCY and 'MEDICAL EMERGENCY' are the two phrases that get priority. For obvious reasons.
Now, can someone please, in 'REAL TERMS' answer Suzies question.
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I have only used it once. To me it meant, don't put me in a hold and dont give me excessive vectoring. If there is excessive queuing then I would speak up and ask for priority...if it got really bad I would declare an emergency.
I find that 95% of my arrivals here are quite orderly with minimal delays....I would not expect any extra ATC attention with the telex as quoted. If my fuel state was more dire I hope I had a bloody good reason for overflying a perfectly good airport with refuelling capacity and I would be declaring an emergency which should remove any ambiguity;-)
If I got that message and I was the controller I would just try to make sure the guy doesn't get the full via manila arrival from sierra. If its not an emergency then its not an emergency. So I would treat the message more as a 'heads up' - if there are going to be delays, put this guy at the front of the queue.
To answer your specific question...if we think we are going to land with less than 30minutes of fuel we declare an emergency.
I find that 95% of my arrivals here are quite orderly with minimal delays....I would not expect any extra ATC attention with the telex as quoted. If my fuel state was more dire I hope I had a bloody good reason for overflying a perfectly good airport with refuelling capacity and I would be declaring an emergency which should remove any ambiguity;-)
If I got that message and I was the controller I would just try to make sure the guy doesn't get the full via manila arrival from sierra. If its not an emergency then its not an emergency. So I would treat the message more as a 'heads up' - if there are going to be delays, put this guy at the front of the queue.
To answer your specific question...if we think we are going to land with less than 30minutes of fuel we declare an emergency.
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Quite often UAL would say they are short of fuel,but not declare any emergency.Looks like CPA are trying the same trick.In the UK I would treat that that piece of paper with a question to the aircraft,are you declaring an emergency.If the answer is no then it gets treated like all the others.If the answer is yes then squawk 7700 and you will be on the ground ASAP.No delay in the UK is 20 minutes or less holding and after that you give EATs.This all stems back to the DC8 that crashed in New York having run out of fuel,after extensive holding and go-arounds without declaring any emergency.
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if we think we are going to land with less than 30minutes of fuel we declare an emergency
But that is the problem for us - nobody declare "fuel emergency" -they just get the company to call up and pass a note! Then when we start vector somebody else they can say "Hey, don't push me back, I only got 35 minutes too!"
I remember in our training are told about Avianca in NY (?) not using the right phrase and ran out of fuel -seems this is the same.
I think like Rule 3 says you either have enough or you don't!
Anyway thanks.
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Enroute planning when running short.
Hi Suzie,
A good question.
It is pretty rare for us to need to factor in a slick arrival to HKG, for fuel planning when enroute. But it does sometimes happen.
In over 700 long haul sectors, I can only recall having to send such a message to CX IOC (OPS) twice. Typically requesting FIR entry point to somewhere downwind with no altitude restrictions. (Example Elato to Sokoe)
This would probably have been sent when maybe halfway to HKG, with the fuel trend seriously "going the wrong way". Requesting a fuel conservation arrival at this stage is only one of various strategies we would be employing.
This can happen with a major "stuff up on flight levels", plus maybe something extra. One time we were stuck low, and then had to go off track (80+nm) for weather trans pacific. The other time, Mongolia would not let us enter their airspace, so we had to go all the way south to FKG and fly through China. At that stage we were obviously in serious fuel conservation mode, and looking very closely at our predicted fuel for arrival.
Naturally we were overflying airports on the way to HKG, but requesting a "slick" arrival helps us to plan if we are going to continue or drop into somewhere like Taipei etc. The decision to continue to HKG or stop for more fuel on the way is made by the Captain and his crew, if they consider it safe. Financial cost is not a factor.
In summary, the message from our Ops about "low on fuel", is simply us letting you know early that we may be unusually tight and have planned for a slick arrival. If you can't let us go direct, then please let us stay high or fly clean speeds, with no "expedite descent through......"
As always, if you can descibe your arrival plan then we can fly that as fuel efficiently as possibly. If what you describe does not sound good, then we can let you know what we need immediately.
There is a finite stage when we will declare a fuel emergency. Personally I will give you an alert in minutes. Example, "we need to be at LIMES for the approach in 10 minutes or I will be declaring a fuel emergency".
It is too bad that we never get to meet ATC anymore for "socials" or famil flights and talk about these issues. Guess that we are all kept far too busy working!
Keep up the good work!
A good question.
It is pretty rare for us to need to factor in a slick arrival to HKG, for fuel planning when enroute. But it does sometimes happen.
In over 700 long haul sectors, I can only recall having to send such a message to CX IOC (OPS) twice. Typically requesting FIR entry point to somewhere downwind with no altitude restrictions. (Example Elato to Sokoe)
This would probably have been sent when maybe halfway to HKG, with the fuel trend seriously "going the wrong way". Requesting a fuel conservation arrival at this stage is only one of various strategies we would be employing.
This can happen with a major "stuff up on flight levels", plus maybe something extra. One time we were stuck low, and then had to go off track (80+nm) for weather trans pacific. The other time, Mongolia would not let us enter their airspace, so we had to go all the way south to FKG and fly through China. At that stage we were obviously in serious fuel conservation mode, and looking very closely at our predicted fuel for arrival.
Naturally we were overflying airports on the way to HKG, but requesting a "slick" arrival helps us to plan if we are going to continue or drop into somewhere like Taipei etc. The decision to continue to HKG or stop for more fuel on the way is made by the Captain and his crew, if they consider it safe. Financial cost is not a factor.
In summary, the message from our Ops about "low on fuel", is simply us letting you know early that we may be unusually tight and have planned for a slick arrival. If you can't let us go direct, then please let us stay high or fly clean speeds, with no "expedite descent through......"
As always, if you can descibe your arrival plan then we can fly that as fuel efficiently as possibly. If what you describe does not sound good, then we can let you know what we need immediately.
There is a finite stage when we will declare a fuel emergency. Personally I will give you an alert in minutes. Example, "we need to be at LIMES for the approach in 10 minutes or I will be declaring a fuel emergency".
It is too bad that we never get to meet ATC anymore for "socials" or famil flights and talk about these issues. Guess that we are all kept far too busy working!
Keep up the good work!
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Suzie,
I don't want to repeat the entire thread, but if I were a controller that was handed that note it would tell me few things. First, most likely the flight has contacted their operations/dispatch and if they are vectored or delayed more than normal then most likely the Captain is going to divert or declare an fuel emergency.
I am always surprised how fast "the brotherhood" is willing to throw others "under the bus" without knowing the circumstances. My experience is that this fuel issue is a result of factors outside of forecasts, expected routings, etc. On a 10-14 hour flight many things can happen that would adversely affect a flight. Even using "best judgement", situations occur that would put a crew in a position that they are looking at a divert (at a average cost of about 1 million USD) or landing with a fuel load significantly less than the "comfort zone" as opposed to being illegal or dangerous.
My advice is that if you can expedite the arrival without undue delay to other flights then do so, if that is not possible tell the crew early so they can make an informed decision.
If this becomes a trend for a certain airline or flight, then I would tell your supervisor and allow him/her to contact the airline operations.
I also suspect that anyone who has a resonable amount of flying experience has found themselves in a similar situation, and a little help from our friends seated comfortably on the ground is always appreciated.
Thanks for all you do!
Sky
I don't want to repeat the entire thread, but if I were a controller that was handed that note it would tell me few things. First, most likely the flight has contacted their operations/dispatch and if they are vectored or delayed more than normal then most likely the Captain is going to divert or declare an fuel emergency.
I am always surprised how fast "the brotherhood" is willing to throw others "under the bus" without knowing the circumstances. My experience is that this fuel issue is a result of factors outside of forecasts, expected routings, etc. On a 10-14 hour flight many things can happen that would adversely affect a flight. Even using "best judgement", situations occur that would put a crew in a position that they are looking at a divert (at a average cost of about 1 million USD) or landing with a fuel load significantly less than the "comfort zone" as opposed to being illegal or dangerous.
My advice is that if you can expedite the arrival without undue delay to other flights then do so, if that is not possible tell the crew early so they can make an informed decision.
If this becomes a trend for a certain airline or flight, then I would tell your supervisor and allow him/her to contact the airline operations.
I also suspect that anyone who has a resonable amount of flying experience has found themselves in a similar situation, and a little help from our friends seated comfortably on the ground is always appreciated.
Thanks for all you do!
Sky
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Suzie, I for one appreciate the fact that you asked the question. I have contacted IOC on one ocassion asking them to pass to ATC that we request minimium track miles as a result of burning in excess of the fuel plan .... way in excess. The profile I was looking for was FL 130 over Sierra and 40 odd track miles .... and I am happy to say we got it. Granted this is often the profile before 7 am but we were arriving later in the day. What I was attempting to prevent by such a request was FL 130 and 120 track miles which I have had on a number of occasions.
The previous comments by some re the declaration of a fuel emergency is not a standard phrase and , if the situation requires such a declaration then it is important that it is not misunderstood. There is a reticence in our circles to use the term MAYDAY ( 30 mins remaining) however, in my case, performing a glide approach would raise the dry cleaning bill.
The previous comments by some re the declaration of a fuel emergency is not a standard phrase and , if the situation requires such a declaration then it is important that it is not misunderstood. There is a reticence in our circles to use the term MAYDAY ( 30 mins remaining) however, in my case, performing a glide approach would raise the dry cleaning bill.
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The figure is irrelevant, at least the message was sensible. For my money, skyryder has given the best explanation.
The one time I've had to do it here I found ATC very accommodating, so thanks and please keep up the good work!
The one time I've had to do it here I found ATC very accommodating, so thanks and please keep up the good work!
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What do CPA do going into Heathrow in the same situation? Divert to Amsterdam knowing ''we're a bit tight on fuel'' phrase won't work too well in the LTMA.
It seems a bit dodgy having very little fuel left,and not declaring any emergency.You can have unplanned go-arounds for any reason,and then you're in real trouble.Or is it if you declare an emergency then management will punish the pilots.
It seems a bit dodgy having very little fuel left,and not declaring any emergency.You can have unplanned go-arounds for any reason,and then you're in real trouble.Or is it if you declare an emergency then management will punish the pilots.
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Well Caudillo,
I will submit to your greater knowledge, since it is obvious that you know more than I about this subject. I don't feel any need to "prove" that figure, as in the end your opinion about the veracity of my post won't have a material effect on the happiness of my life.
I will say that I had access to the information of a large world wide carrier and they placed the value(cost), all inclusive of the average 747-400 diversion at approx. 1 million USD. If you find this figure unacceptable then I offer my apologies and you are free to take notice of the misletoe attached to the vertical stab.
Regards
I will submit to your greater knowledge, since it is obvious that you know more than I about this subject. I don't feel any need to "prove" that figure, as in the end your opinion about the veracity of my post won't have a material effect on the happiness of my life.
I will say that I had access to the information of a large world wide carrier and they placed the value(cost), all inclusive of the average 747-400 diversion at approx. 1 million USD. If you find this figure unacceptable then I offer my apologies and you are free to take notice of the misletoe attached to the vertical stab.
Regards
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Thanks to everyone for there answers.
It seems everyone thinks it should be rare, but I can tell you that it is almost a daily thing to get a note from UAL several hours before SIERA ( at least when Im on!). Not so frequent with CPA but always the same flights - is that saying something? Like my instructor say , Taken by surprise .... again!.
It seems everyone thinks it should be rare, but I can tell you that it is almost a daily thing to get a note from UAL several hours before SIERA ( at least when Im on!). Not so frequent with CPA but always the same flights - is that saying something? Like my instructor say , Taken by surprise .... again!.
but I can tell you that it is almost a daily thing to get a note from UAL several hours before SIERA
Every now and then is fine, but everyday?
Which CX flight is always asking? CX Line ops should be put into the loop so they can have a look at the fuel planning and try to stop this from occurring so frequently.
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Close counts
Throw a die,
Quit trying to bring in UK thinking. This is one area where HK have their s### sorted.
This explanation of "No Delay" makes me laugh ! It is right up there with fully ready ! Why stop there, there should be "inconvenient delay" = a delay that will make you miss last call, "Ludicrous delay" = you might get in before you run out of Red Rose!"
How very George Orwellian !!
On and thanks Suzy. I have used the preferential request system in anger and it is comforting to know the controller is aware of our predicament. ATCs extra effort has stopped us from going to Maccau a few times ! (Yeah I get a lot of LAs!!!)
Not like the UK though !!
Carry on.
What do CPA do going into Heathrow in the same situation? Divert to Amsterdam knowing ''we're a bit tight on fuel'' phrase won't work too well in the LTMA.
No delay in the UK is 20 minutes or less holding
How very George Orwellian !!
On and thanks Suzy. I have used the preferential request system in anger and it is comforting to know the controller is aware of our predicament. ATCs extra effort has stopped us from going to Maccau a few times ! (Yeah I get a lot of LAs!!!)
Not like the UK though !!
Carry on.