Fuel Critical
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5 Green,
Well if HK has their s*$£ sorted then why is Suzie asking the question what does it mean,or what as controllers should they do? Preferential request system
,what category of flight is that then?
The 20 min delay is no delay,was brought in after a Far Eastern carrier arrived at Heathrow on vapours,and had to hold because of traffic.It landed with almost nothing left.Sounds a bit familiar
.The AAIB investigated that one.
The policy that I'm talking about is published in our Mats part1.It is the answer you will get into the UK,and believe me if you declare an emergency you will be number 1 for certain.
I have worked both ATC systems.You take a lot of the UK training and forget it,stand it on it head whatever going to HK.I saw more dodgy things in that place in 3 years,than in the rest of my 29 years career.I thought that the whole idea of aviation safety was to learn from others mistakes or accidents.Well looks like you know it all so there you go.
Safe flying.Carry on carrying on.
Well if HK has their s*$£ sorted then why is Suzie asking the question what does it mean,or what as controllers should they do? Preferential request system
,what category of flight is that then?The 20 min delay is no delay,was brought in after a Far Eastern carrier arrived at Heathrow on vapours,and had to hold because of traffic.It landed with almost nothing left.Sounds a bit familiar
.The AAIB investigated that one.The policy that I'm talking about is published in our Mats part1.It is the answer you will get into the UK,and believe me if you declare an emergency you will be number 1 for certain.
I have worked both ATC systems.You take a lot of the UK training and forget it,stand it on it head whatever going to HK.I saw more dodgy things in that place in 3 years,than in the rest of my 29 years career.I thought that the whole idea of aviation safety was to learn from others mistakes or accidents.Well looks like you know it all so there you go.
Safe flying.Carry on carrying on.
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Actually i would of guessed ATC will receive such a note , especially from CX if the flight noted in that note is using Inflight Fuel Reduction rule. Which leaves us with "45 mins" of fuel. Since one of the criteria that must be met before applying the rule is "No known ATC delays"
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Fuel critical doesn't mean illegal. I have heard United declare a fuel emergency going into Sydney and I've heard an Aerostar declare one going into Bathurst, it happens, but fuel critical is not a fuel emergency so why should CAD be informed?
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Let's bring us into other view when aircraft declared "fuel Critical". As a dispatcher, I will look out air traffic and call ATC for any delay or holding during ETA. And also look for listed alternate within their fuel remain on board. Normally, it just like warning to dispatcher that the aircraft may divert if any holding or delay occured.
If aircraft declared fuel emergency, the aircraft must land asap and they are not enough fuel for diversion. For dispatcher, a lot of paper work and report will submit to CAD afterwards because it may involved inproper planning.
Follow this link to see the air crash investigation about the Avianca 52 running out of fuel over New York and you may more about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSdjR...eature=related
If aircraft declared fuel emergency, the aircraft must land asap and they are not enough fuel for diversion. For dispatcher, a lot of paper work and report will submit to CAD afterwards because it may involved inproper planning.
Follow this link to see the air crash investigation about the Avianca 52 running out of fuel over New York and you may more about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSdjR...eature=related
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large world wide carrier and they placed the value(cost), all inclusive of the average 747-400 diversion at approx. 1 million USD.
Mutt
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How long would it take for CPA to start abusing the system.If the passing the wee bits of paper works to get you in quicker,then this will become the norm.Nudge Nudge wink wink know what I mean.
What would CPA say at Heathrow if all the BAW flights got in first,because they have a secret system.I'm sure they would be screaming blue murder.
What would CPA say at Heathrow if all the BAW flights got in first,because they have a secret system.I'm sure they would be screaming blue murder.
Cool as a moosp
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Suzie's original post was about CX asking for low fuel privileges and yet it seems that your most frequent concern is from UAL.
I suspect that this is not only a safety issue and much more a commercial issue. UAL dispatch under FAA dispatch regulations and to take extra fuel that common sense and airmanship would dictate requires serious cojones to face the subsequent managers letter to you. (UAL pilots are welcome to diss this statement if you think it is not true, but it is posted with some knowledge of the workings of your dispatch system.)
As airline managements over the years have needed to cut costs and improve productivity for the sake of their shareholders, fuel has taken an ever larger focus of their interest. The result is that I believe it is fair to say that most pilots depart with a fuel state that whilst legal is less than they would have taken if they had had a free decision in the matter, weighing up the cost benefit analysis.
So ATC get lumbered with airline operations calling them to ask for preferential treatment on approach. I think if this happens more than twice a year in Hong Kong from the same airline you should be very skeptical of the fuel policy of that airline. If it is happening as often as you report, then CAD should be informed, by whatever process you have. Remember that the DCA was once in ATC, and you will realise that you will get an educated and probably sympathetic ear to the problem.
I suspect that this is not only a safety issue and much more a commercial issue. UAL dispatch under FAA dispatch regulations and to take extra fuel that common sense and airmanship would dictate requires serious cojones to face the subsequent managers letter to you. (UAL pilots are welcome to diss this statement if you think it is not true, but it is posted with some knowledge of the workings of your dispatch system.)
As airline managements over the years have needed to cut costs and improve productivity for the sake of their shareholders, fuel has taken an ever larger focus of their interest. The result is that I believe it is fair to say that most pilots depart with a fuel state that whilst legal is less than they would have taken if they had had a free decision in the matter, weighing up the cost benefit analysis.
So ATC get lumbered with airline operations calling them to ask for preferential treatment on approach. I think if this happens more than twice a year in Hong Kong from the same airline you should be very skeptical of the fuel policy of that airline. If it is happening as often as you report, then CAD should be informed, by whatever process you have. Remember that the DCA was once in ATC, and you will realise that you will get an educated and probably sympathetic ear to the problem.
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in the USA
min fuel = any undue delay will burn into fixed reserve 45 min ATC wont' give holds or delay vectors
emergency declared at 30 minutes left
sounds like critical might = min fuel
min fuel = any undue delay will burn into fixed reserve 45 min ATC wont' give holds or delay vectors
emergency declared at 30 minutes left
sounds like critical might = min fuel
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Critical fuel?
How does an ATC supervisor know what we have remaining (real time) unless Engineering picks it out of the CMC....
recently given extra vectors to accomodate "fuel critical" flight YYZ-HKG when we had just done 15 hours from LAX. I guess I should have told ATC we were "fuel critical" (but 8T, on landing, is normal for us on that sector).
Less than 30 min.; declare an emergency, other than that join the pattern.
How does an ATC supervisor know what we have remaining (real time) unless Engineering picks it out of the CMC....
recently given extra vectors to accomodate "fuel critical" flight YYZ-HKG when we had just done 15 hours from LAX. I guess I should have told ATC we were "fuel critical" (but 8T, on landing, is normal for us on that sector).
Less than 30 min.; declare an emergency, other than that join the pattern.
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I'll take a punt
and guess the callsigns of these aircraft start with 8 ...
Having been involved in a few reclearance operations and inflight reductions of fuel coming back from LAX and SFO recently, I think it is perfectly acceptable to declare your hand a few hours out and ACARS Ops and ask for priority over other CX aircraft. I understand this facility is available and I would wager this is what Suzie is experiencing. If the answer is no... RCTP and ZBAA and the subsequent 400 hotels rooms come into play.
Seems a shrewd way of operating to me.....
Having been involved in a few reclearance operations and inflight reductions of fuel coming back from LAX and SFO recently, I think it is perfectly acceptable to declare your hand a few hours out and ACARS Ops and ask for priority over other CX aircraft. I understand this facility is available and I would wager this is what Suzie is experiencing. If the answer is no... RCTP and ZBAA and the subsequent 400 hotels rooms come into play.
Seems a shrewd way of operating to me.....
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UAL have been doing this for years.When I was there 98-01 is was as common as one or twice a week at this time of year.I used to mention why (10 HK$) don't they carry more as this is a common problem,but got the same response as Suzie gets.
HKATC try and fit these aircraft in and perhaps got a photo copied note a day or 2 later as a thank you.But by doing this,it has now become the norm,when the way to stamp it out is no preferential treatment unless you declare an emergency.Then the CAD will know and butts will be kicked.Doing it the HK way,no-one changes anything and the practice spreads.The coal face ATCO as usual has to take the flak.
Still no-one has mentioned what the fuel policy is going into Heathrow with CPA.Do they adhere to the 20min holding rule,and carry the fuel for that?
HKATC try and fit these aircraft in and perhaps got a photo copied note a day or 2 later as a thank you.But by doing this,it has now become the norm,when the way to stamp it out is no preferential treatment unless you declare an emergency.Then the CAD will know and butts will be kicked.Doing it the HK way,no-one changes anything and the practice spreads.The coal face ATCO as usual has to take the flak.
Still no-one has mentioned what the fuel policy is going into Heathrow with CPA.Do they adhere to the 20min holding rule,and carry the fuel for that?
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If the CAD allowed 3mile radar separation,then you could up the movement rate and there would be less delays.But the high speed exits would have to used as such,and not a parking lot.
Bit if UK thinking there.
Bit if UK thinking there.
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throw a dyce
I am having trouble following your post but I think when you say
"..why (10 HK$) don't they carry more as this is a common problem,.."
you are saying crews are chosing, for economic reasons, to not load enough fuel.
Often out of LAX/ SFO you are operating to a fuel limit; either the amount you can fit in the tanks, or Max Ramp Wt, Structual TO Wt or RTOW; You simply cannot load anymore fuel.
Your options are to offload passengers or freight at the last minute; which will mean you delay miss your slot and then APU burn more fuel (and of course alienate a lot of customers). You can launch and land in TPE or ZBAA or Soeul and at best cop a long day and at worst nitestop because CX can't generate a crew to take the aircraft on. Alternatively, you launch then manage the aircraft and fuel and prior to passing your LPD you will have numbers to be legal and sensible; however as a prudent pilot you are considering the "what ifs" so you want to get as many things on your side; which would include getting CX ops to ask Suzie Wong and her colleagues that you have priority over other CX aircraft... is that unreasonable?
It would be erronous to think crews are launching knowing that they have insufficient fuel and expect HK ATC to bail them out at the other end. Equally, it kind of stupid to fly 15 1/4 hours from LAX managing the fuel as best you can and then follow a bunch of company aircraft arriving from MNL and TPE around the radar pattern and then get too close to them on finals, or a windshear warning and goround and declare an emergency due fuel. Don't you think as a company we can avoid this by sensibly shuffling the priority of our own arriving aircraft?
"..why (10 HK$) don't they carry more as this is a common problem,.."
you are saying crews are chosing, for economic reasons, to not load enough fuel.
Often out of LAX/ SFO you are operating to a fuel limit; either the amount you can fit in the tanks, or Max Ramp Wt, Structual TO Wt or RTOW; You simply cannot load anymore fuel.
Your options are to offload passengers or freight at the last minute; which will mean you delay miss your slot and then APU burn more fuel (and of course alienate a lot of customers). You can launch and land in TPE or ZBAA or Soeul and at best cop a long day and at worst nitestop because CX can't generate a crew to take the aircraft on. Alternatively, you launch then manage the aircraft and fuel and prior to passing your LPD you will have numbers to be legal and sensible; however as a prudent pilot you are considering the "what ifs" so you want to get as many things on your side; which would include getting CX ops to ask Suzie Wong and her colleagues that you have priority over other CX aircraft... is that unreasonable?
It would be erronous to think crews are launching knowing that they have insufficient fuel and expect HK ATC to bail them out at the other end. Equally, it kind of stupid to fly 15 1/4 hours from LAX managing the fuel as best you can and then follow a bunch of company aircraft arriving from MNL and TPE around the radar pattern and then get too close to them on finals, or a windshear warning and goround and declare an emergency due fuel. Don't you think as a company we can avoid this by sensibly shuffling the priority of our own arriving aircraft?
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How does an ATC supervisor know what we have remaining
A bit surprised to see controllers asking such question here.
Didn't they teach you that in the Training Unit?
Didn't they teach you that in the Training Unit?
No, they didnt tell us that we would get handed notes saying "fuel critical" and what it mean. We got told about "Fuel Emergency" etc.
If every company was "shrewd" Liam then we would be in a huge mess trying to please evryone. CPA8xx are not the only long haul we have. Plus I normally only have one UAL on freq- who should give way to him?
Thanks but I like jtr's answer the best so far.
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Can't comment about UAL's policy. However, if he want's priority over CX aircraft declare an emergency; equally if I want one over him, I'll do likewise... worldwide standard.....
The only priority we seek is over fellow company aircraft. The request is placed by us well in advance and the Company will decide if they want to ask HKATC. If they are not prepared to ask; they let us know and we make appropriate plans. If it is HKATC policy not to not play this game; so be it; write to CX explaining such and we all know where we stand.
The few times I have seen this done (maybe 3 times in 6 years); it worked well.....
The only priority we seek is over fellow company aircraft. The request is placed by us well in advance and the Company will decide if they want to ask HKATC. If they are not prepared to ask; they let us know and we make appropriate plans. If it is HKATC policy not to not play this game; so be it; write to CX explaining such and we all know where we stand.
The few times I have seen this done (maybe 3 times in 6 years); it worked well.....
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UAL just came out with a fuel savings program which they're implementing which is exactly that - flying with min fuel. i declared min fuel the other week and nearly twice last week as a result. it's weeks old. you can guess how popular we were slowing to 200 kts from 100 nm out going into IAD.
it's a matter of time before every other airline tries the same is my guess -
it's a matter of time before every other airline tries the same is my guess -
Suzie's comments are good...as are many of the Pilots comments on the other side of the coin.
The "big problem" seems to be that nobody has the sole rights on "the big picture". Not only that but the big picture is an ever evolving and variable quantity.
From the pilots point of view, every time he turns up in an ATC destination area he worries about what sorts of delays he may encounter. By law he needs to declare a Mayday if he suspects at any stage he will land with less than 30 minutes of fuel. But, quite simply, the pilot doesn't have the ATC knowledge of the current situation to even start estimating the variables that go towards that end goal...let alone anything in between. And ATC don't go out of their way to inform crews of what might may lie ahead of them.
From the ATC perspective, the controller has no idea of what fuel reserves and holding potential each aircraft has remaining after flights that have traveled halfway around the world encountering less than perfect weather forecasting. Pilots don't go out of their way to keep ATC updated and are not required to do so. And they may even be chastised by ATC if they offer what ATC considers to be "non-relevant information" (Either declare an Emergency, or STFU!).
And on both sides there is the individual human response factor to the different and sometimes, even the same stresses.
But, let me repeat what ATC Grandfather Guru Parker has reiterated on many occasions, ATC has some sympathy for long haul flight arrivals with minimum reserves, but has absolutely NO sympathy for short haul flight arrivals with minimum reserves. There should be mandatory higher reserves for short haul flights operating into major long haul hubs.
Plan your fuel upload judiciously with the real-world in mind.
The "big problem" seems to be that nobody has the sole rights on "the big picture". Not only that but the big picture is an ever evolving and variable quantity.
From the pilots point of view, every time he turns up in an ATC destination area he worries about what sorts of delays he may encounter. By law he needs to declare a Mayday if he suspects at any stage he will land with less than 30 minutes of fuel. But, quite simply, the pilot doesn't have the ATC knowledge of the current situation to even start estimating the variables that go towards that end goal...let alone anything in between. And ATC don't go out of their way to inform crews of what might may lie ahead of them.
From the ATC perspective, the controller has no idea of what fuel reserves and holding potential each aircraft has remaining after flights that have traveled halfway around the world encountering less than perfect weather forecasting. Pilots don't go out of their way to keep ATC updated and are not required to do so. And they may even be chastised by ATC if they offer what ATC considers to be "non-relevant information" (Either declare an Emergency, or STFU!).
And on both sides there is the individual human response factor to the different and sometimes, even the same stresses.
But, let me repeat what ATC Grandfather Guru Parker has reiterated on many occasions, ATC has some sympathy for long haul flight arrivals with minimum reserves, but has absolutely NO sympathy for short haul flight arrivals with minimum reserves. There should be mandatory higher reserves for short haul flights operating into major long haul hubs.
Plan your fuel upload judiciously with the real-world in mind.