KA to implode

[Very Tired]

The news is now official.

• KA freight cut down to 3 aircraft (this just to avoid TUPE legislation)
• Classics retire on schedule
• Remaining 4 BCFs to go to CX

Crews offered the following options

• Stay in KA on the airbus or 744 (MAN) if you have the seniority.
• Join CX at MAN on the BCF or Classic as reqd.
• Loss of seniority, ie at the bottom of CX list
• keep seat subject to rapid command upgrade
• keep year of service increments but transfer to CX freight scale NOT the recently improved KA scale.
• years of KA service recognised for staff travel

Redundancy not even mentioned or offered.

Looks like a mass exodus from KA (not to CX) with pilots positioning themselves for airbus ratings or 744 ratings. Not to mention legal challenges (TUPE, constructive dismissal), industrial unrest, IFALPA bans.

When will CX management learn that negotiation and consultation always brings better results than smashing somebody over the head?

[Lowkoon]

So we have one dill running around level 2 saying we would get all the 330s coming in 2012 if we could crew them, at the same time the DPA is working on a redundancy package. Business as usual....

Wondering if the FCS guys fighting so hard for "grandfather rights" on the Manchester base, feel so strongly about it now for their FCS colleagues thinking of staying in KA and coming to HKG... Cant have it both ways boys. Not expecting too many of them to want to come to hkg, but some will, making current airbus FOs even more junior. That should have a few bus drivers leave after they get their gratuity.

So the HKRO scabs get offered CX seniority? Thats nice... So if we ever integrate, they will be senior to all of us. Give you a warm and fuzzy? That alone has got to be worth reentering CC for some may think?

With pornstar tiger and virgin making offers to quite a number of KA crew at the moment, it is amazing how many guys are set to resign, it amazes me still, how many guys are sitting on offers just waiting to give the minimum 3 months. The 320 is about to have its turn to lose even more senior captains. Add to that, the air china Frankfurt base about to start recruiting Captains that want to return to Europe. The chance to return home for the Europeans has been closed.

We have just seen Kenny's response to not being able to crew the freighter, wonder what his response will be to the airbus crewing being further decimated? To his credit, in his letter he was very careful not to apportion blame of the failure of the 400 introduction, no prizes for guessing who is responsible. How did a freight operation fail out of the worlds biggest freight terminal, at a time of unprecedented growth for the region? Quite amazing really.

An interesting couple of months ahead.

[NewEssO]

is this official as in announced within KA?

[dragon501]

Yes Sir, it is official.

[Lowkoon]

Operating as a wet lease to cx according to the letter/s.

So the most senior 400 guys that stay in KA get to operate the 3 amigos?

And there is a guarantee that they will never expand, or offer HKG bases? Another cunning business model...

[Very Tired]

TUPE - Transfer of Undertakings, Protection of Employment

Click here if you've got a spare couple of hours.

Basically says that when being taken over, the new company cannot reduce your terms and conditions, benefits, etc. The contract has to continue as if there was no interruption to years of service.

[Mr. Bloggs]

So are you saying the new employee’s that were absorbed or taken over may have better Conditions of Service/Benefits than the employee’s that are currently working for the company that took them over?

[Table For 1]

Don't come here.....

Well you can argue about who gets 50p more than who all day long....but it seems to me that the real crux of this is how do you want to be treated by your employer.

I have seen the letter and if that is the best CX's endless supply of Swire Prince Managers and Lawyers can come up with in terms of HR in the 21st Century for all of you out there considering it the answer is simple:


DO NOT JOIN KA or CX!

KA Freight seemed to survive quite well until CX took over...you have to laugh at the spin....there were never any career concerns amongst KA pilots until you know who took over.....

[Very Tired]

So are you saying the new employee’s that were absorbed or taken over may have better Conditions of Service/Benefits than the employee’s that are currently working for the company that took them over?

Mr Bloggs, that´s right. Not here to debate the rights and wrongs of it, it is however the law in UK.

[KA400]

Dear Lowkoon,
Just for my interest who are the HKRO scabs?
The Captains who did the right thing to stop the DEC's? Or the F/O's who joined on the bottom of the list like everybody else?

[dragon501]

You mean the FO's who joined on the bottom of the list when there was a recruitment BAN in place.... Just a minor oversight but I am glad to point it out to you.

[Mr. Bloggs]

So the UK based pilots will have their conditions and pay grandfathered, am I correct? If the KA Hong Kong based pilots come over, whether freighter or passenger, will they have the same protection or is it just the UK based freighter pilots?

Very interesting stuff, glad to see CX consulted the pilots before hand. Welcome to the Swire/Cathay way of managing people. Don’t worry KA pilots, it only gets worse from here.

[Lowkoon]

The individuals who joined under the IFALPA supported employment ban. Hope that clarifies the group concerned. This is not the same as "how everyone else joined".

[joebanana]

So the UK based pilots will have their conditions and pay grandfathered, am I correct?

Mr B I'm afraid that CX are ignoring the TUPE legislation and trying every trick to work around it. They aren't keeping 3 freighters in KA for economic or commercial reasons, it's simply that transferring those aircraft into CX is unavoidably a TUPE transfer. The way they've structured the 'offer' is designed to avoid their obligations but they are dressing it up as offering us career opportunities.

Within the overall group’s freight activity, our all-cargo operation is small and potentially somewhat tenuous. From a professional pilot’s perspective this is not ideal since it creates career anxiety and presents long-term motivation, progression, recruitment and retention problems.

In recognition of this fact, we have decided to make various alternative career options available to our pilots.

So in order to provide benefits and a secure, viable, exciting and wonderfully rewarding careeer we have decided to avoid our legal obligations and give you the chance to be screwed by experts.

[OEB]

Want to be treated like a dog? Join KA

After 6 years at KA here are the facts for anyone interested:

Pollution is out of control and getting worse thanks to the industrial boom in China and all the factories just across the border to the north.

Kids and adults developing all kinds of weird illnesses as a result.

Guys going out medically with early alzheimer's, heart problems, cancer, mercury poisoning and the list goes on and on. You name it someone's got it.

KA management are absolutely appalling.

Be warned they will come after you and screw you first chance they get. (why? Who the bloody hell knows)

Moral is in the toilet and getting worse thanks to the "no accountability management."

Training non existent but expect a ridiculous level of checking.

IMHO there are about 4 guys in the entire training department who are properly qualified, experienced trainers with the personality traits that go with being a good trainer.

The rest are there to get the good flying patterns, weekends off, pick the eyes out of the leave and generally be treated better than the line pilots.
Some have told me this personally.

They are totally beyond reproach and any form of accountability to you or the union. They have frequently destroyed some outstanding pilots careers for god know what reason!

The guys with the background, proper qualifications and experience as well as a proven record have told me they will not be involved in such a flawed system.

The money is now not such a factor as the HK $ is pegged to the US $ so do your homework.

You will fly max hours into China all the time and be knackered on your days off.
FACT

You will definitely get sick on a few overnights in China as the hotels are mostly below airline acceptable minimum standard.

The rosters are absolutely terrible. You'll do stupid inefficient patterns that keep you away from home for as long as possible unless you're in management or the training department.

Management have told our union that we shouldn't get anything the office staff don't get!

You'll regularly do 5 on 1 off or 6 on 2 off and be so tired all the time you'll think you have an illness which by then you probably will.

Staff travel is ok but basically a waste of time as generally flights are full most of the time.

There's a new GMO who is just another yes man and he wants to sack, suspend and discipline as many pilots as he can so he actually looks like he has what it takes to his superiors at CX.

KA was good for about 18 months but it's finished.

Go anywhere else if you have any common sense.

Mass resignations running at around the 20%+ mark with lots more on the way.

Sick leave between 20% and 30% on any given day.

Clearly these guys couldn't run a bath as they say.

The problems at KA are now insurmountable and getting worse with the current management.

I believe it will implode in the not too distant future.

See you in the sandpit amigos.

[mcdude]

Wow! Another "informed" post from OEB... Yes proof is near, that HK pollution is manufactured by Swire to piss off expat air crew, and KA is the ONLY airline in the world with crap T & C, & crap management.

So OEB, obviously you wont be going for any of these amazing offers, just resigning like the dozen or so who left the KA Airbus fleet in 2007...cheers mate (back to topic please)

[Flap 5]

OEB has got it pretty accurate. KA was good during the 90's. A little more than 18 months - but not by much. Gone rapidly downhill since then. They have kicked out a number of pilots for little or no reason. They can because Hong Kong law allows it for no reason as long as the employer provides the contracted payment of three months notice.

So we should ignore all this then should we mcdude?

And it most definately is on topic as to why KA would implode.

[dragon501]

Don't get me wrong, love a good whinge but check your facts.... These are not right that's for sure...

Cheers