Should I Stay or should I go?
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Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle,WA
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Should I Stay or should I go?
Hi all,
Trying to decide to accept a SO class date or not... Presently turboprop command in US with a good company. Wife and I are interested in a change so moving to HKG appeals other than the pollution.
However, I am trying to assess if it is a move for the life of my CX career. Even after the interview and after reading these forums I'm not very clear on how the basings work or are awarded.
Lets say I like CX but not HKG and want to get our ASAP.
1. Must I wait until JFO or FO for a base?
2. Presumably bases are awarded by seniority?
3. Which bases are the most junior?
4. Which are the most senior?
5. I have right to live and work in EU and US. Presumably I can get based there. What about Canada or Aus?
6. I must return to HKG if I ever actually get a command?
OK, what else should I know about bases? I think I am one of those rare airline types that chases QOL instead of $$$$$$$s I have a good schedule, don't commute and love where I live right now. These are the things that are important to me.
Seatrumpeter
Trying to decide to accept a SO class date or not... Presently turboprop command in US with a good company. Wife and I are interested in a change so moving to HKG appeals other than the pollution.
However, I am trying to assess if it is a move for the life of my CX career. Even after the interview and after reading these forums I'm not very clear on how the basings work or are awarded.
Lets say I like CX but not HKG and want to get our ASAP.
1. Must I wait until JFO or FO for a base?
2. Presumably bases are awarded by seniority?
3. Which bases are the most junior?
4. Which are the most senior?
5. I have right to live and work in EU and US. Presumably I can get based there. What about Canada or Aus?
6. I must return to HKG if I ever actually get a command?
OK, what else should I know about bases? I think I am one of those rare airline types that chases QOL instead of $$$$$$$s I have a good schedule, don't commute and love where I live right now. These are the things that are important to me.
Seatrumpeter
Join Date: Nov 2007
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why don't you go with United, AirCanada, or Alaska? There are so many minibuses, 737s and even wide body going in and out of seattle
This is not for you right now if those are the things you are looking for, if you are not chinese descent and have an urge to live in HK, and if you already have enough experience to go for airlines in NA.
Currently I dont see anyone would join other than local cadets
This is not for you right now if those are the things you are looking for, if you are not chinese descent and have an urge to live in HK, and if you already have enough experience to go for airlines in NA.
Currently I dont see anyone would join other than local cadets
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Stay where you are if you're really happy with your situation. What would make you consider leaving if it's not the $$ you're after and you're happy at your current job? Like Fly747 said, you answered your own question.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I am happy with my lot in life as a pilot here at CX and in HK. If you don't want to live in HK for most of your career don't come to Cathay, simple as that.
On a US basing you will make about the same money in CX over a career as you will in a widebody at DAL CAL UAL etc. Money, however is not everything. As a based pilot in Cathay your world view is over and back to HKG, the end. you will get a lot of time off but the job itself is quite numbing!! With the US carriers you will have much more variety in your professional life than at CX and EVENTUALLY a bit more control of your schedule. Again I reiterate, if you want to stay in the US then avoid CX.
The upside of CX is that you stand a much better chance of never seeing a furlough notice than at any US carrier. Now, you do have a higher risk of getting fired at CX than at a US carrier but that is a different matter entirely. All in all the job security here is good imho but you will be miserable here if you are always pining away to go home; take the chance of a furlough.
To touch on the comment "they are just not nice people to work for anymore," that is true. I will say that there seems to be something in the water these days around the world that companies are not looking after their employees. It is depressing but that is the state we are in. CX is not better or worse than most other airlines I have seen in that regard. The labour laws in Hong Kong allow them to play different games and get away with different things than in other parts of the world but their motives are no more or less profit-seeking than anybody elses these days.
On a US basing you will make about the same money in CX over a career as you will in a widebody at DAL CAL UAL etc. Money, however is not everything. As a based pilot in Cathay your world view is over and back to HKG, the end. you will get a lot of time off but the job itself is quite numbing!! With the US carriers you will have much more variety in your professional life than at CX and EVENTUALLY a bit more control of your schedule. Again I reiterate, if you want to stay in the US then avoid CX.
The upside of CX is that you stand a much better chance of never seeing a furlough notice than at any US carrier. Now, you do have a higher risk of getting fired at CX than at a US carrier but that is a different matter entirely. All in all the job security here is good imho but you will be miserable here if you are always pining away to go home; take the chance of a furlough.
To touch on the comment "they are just not nice people to work for anymore," that is true. I will say that there seems to be something in the water these days around the world that companies are not looking after their employees. It is depressing but that is the state we are in. CX is not better or worse than most other airlines I have seen in that regard. The labour laws in Hong Kong allow them to play different games and get away with different things than in other parts of the world but their motives are no more or less profit-seeking than anybody elses these days.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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CX Happiness
Notwithstanding this is a dedicated CX topic, it applies to a broader question. What does it take to make a pilot happy with his decision and finally his lot in the airline? I beg to suggest that times have changed, but have pilots changed? No. They have not. But what has happened is that in recent years they have succumbed to the divide and conquer of management. The most successful pilots in airline ops are those who recognise that without an association, and a strong leader therein, you cannot survive the onslaught of management without becoming disillusioned, unhappy with your lot, and in the insular environment of HKG, living it day in and day out in the cockpit and at home. This is unhealthy professionally and otherwise. Pilots are supposed to be basically intelligent human beings, yet for some reason many appear to believe that they can deal with a multi billion dollar company management on their own without even the slightest backing of any representative organisation. Logic dictates this is not very clear thinking by the pilots. Pilots are generally fair minded individuals and in organised representation are usually fair in dealings with airline management. It cannot be said that airline managements have the same outlook. History has proven this to be the case since the late 1920's. Pilot's are in the good fortune to make choices for employment - a rare occurrence. So if you wish to come to HKG, or go somewhere else, it will be on the basis of your individual choice and management's assessment of your skill and personality, then remember from that point you are just another tool in the company to be manipulated. 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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seatrumpeter,
Ask yourself how would I feel if these things were all gone. Would you be happy? More importantly would your wife be happy? If not how would this affect your life together?
Hong Kong is a great city but you have to like living here. It is not like North America.
If you or your wife don't like Hong Kong you have will very little choice left apart from resigning and going job hunting again.
Commuting to North America, forget it. It will take years off your life plus you will be away from home a lot.
With your seniority you would have no chance of a passenger base. Passenger Basings are filling up fast with senior pilots. CX has moved the goal posts with RA65 approaching.
So your only option would be to take a Freighter Base.
Cathay is having a huge problem crewing its Freighter operations in North America. Why? Well the Freighter roster is bad. Lots of time away from home. Plenty of disruption. Crew Control calling you on your days off all the time. The company is desperate at the moment so you can forget any stability.
Lots of Freighter pilots are resigning and spreading the news amongst your fellow country men to avoid CX big time.
Think about all of this as it directly impacts what you value the most..
As Fly747 said, I think you have answered you own question as the join CX or not.
I have a good schedule, don't commute and love where I live right now. These are the things that are important to me.
Hong Kong is a great city but you have to like living here. It is not like North America.
If you or your wife don't like Hong Kong you have will very little choice left apart from resigning and going job hunting again.
Commuting to North America, forget it. It will take years off your life plus you will be away from home a lot.
With your seniority you would have no chance of a passenger base. Passenger Basings are filling up fast with senior pilots. CX has moved the goal posts with RA65 approaching.
So your only option would be to take a Freighter Base.
Cathay is having a huge problem crewing its Freighter operations in North America. Why? Well the Freighter roster is bad. Lots of time away from home. Plenty of disruption. Crew Control calling you on your days off all the time. The company is desperate at the moment so you can forget any stability.
Lots of Freighter pilots are resigning and spreading the news amongst your fellow country men to avoid CX big time.
Think about all of this as it directly impacts what you value the most..
As Fly747 said, I think you have answered you own question as the join CX or not.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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seatrumpeter
CX is not a life sentence...its just a job.
For whatever job you have, wherever you have it, just decide if you have crossed your 'line in the sand'. When you have, leave. If you have no real concerns giving up your job and would like some time in HKG, then join. I am sure you are well versed on the limitations of the pay, benefits and working conditions to make a sensible decision.
One major drawback we have in airline jobs....the line in the sand moves further away the more time we spend here. That results with us putting up with far more after 10 years than we would have after one year. Common sense really, the elusive command or the elusive endorsement makes us put up with quite a lot.
Generally people like to downplay what they hear -"it can't be as bad as all that", or "yeah but that issue won't affect me". Here are two issues for you to consider - education and medical.
Education
You read that CX covers 90% of ESF or 75% of the Intl school fees, whichever is applicable. So you think, 'great, my school fees are almost covered". Then you try to find an ESF school with slots or up to an acceptable standard, and you can't. So you send your kid/s to an Intl school that costs $80-100K per year(primary). You get 75% back but then pay tax on that as well. So you have gone from thinking you had almost free education for your kids to paying $30-35K per year per child for Primary.
Medical
CX cover 100% of your dependant medical bills up to prescribed limits. The limits were recently increased by around 15%. That was to cover the medical cost increases that have occurred over the last 8 years. Talk to Drs here and you will hear of how most operations cost around 100% more than 8 years ago. A dependant of a mate of mine needed an emergency operation - no time to fly her to home country. He got a bill a few weeks later for close to $100K to cover the cost in excess of the CX prescribed limits. He had no choice in the operation nor the location of the operation. The new CX prescribed limits would leave him almost $80K out of pocket!
So read the fine print with care....and assume the worst, then you will never be disappointed!
For whatever job you have, wherever you have it, just decide if you have crossed your 'line in the sand'. When you have, leave. If you have no real concerns giving up your job and would like some time in HKG, then join. I am sure you are well versed on the limitations of the pay, benefits and working conditions to make a sensible decision.
One major drawback we have in airline jobs....the line in the sand moves further away the more time we spend here. That results with us putting up with far more after 10 years than we would have after one year. Common sense really, the elusive command or the elusive endorsement makes us put up with quite a lot.
Generally people like to downplay what they hear -"it can't be as bad as all that", or "yeah but that issue won't affect me". Here are two issues for you to consider - education and medical.
Education
You read that CX covers 90% of ESF or 75% of the Intl school fees, whichever is applicable. So you think, 'great, my school fees are almost covered". Then you try to find an ESF school with slots or up to an acceptable standard, and you can't. So you send your kid/s to an Intl school that costs $80-100K per year(primary). You get 75% back but then pay tax on that as well. So you have gone from thinking you had almost free education for your kids to paying $30-35K per year per child for Primary.
Medical
CX cover 100% of your dependant medical bills up to prescribed limits. The limits were recently increased by around 15%. That was to cover the medical cost increases that have occurred over the last 8 years. Talk to Drs here and you will hear of how most operations cost around 100% more than 8 years ago. A dependant of a mate of mine needed an emergency operation - no time to fly her to home country. He got a bill a few weeks later for close to $100K to cover the cost in excess of the CX prescribed limits. He had no choice in the operation nor the location of the operation. The new CX prescribed limits would leave him almost $80K out of pocket!
So read the fine print with care....and assume the worst, then you will never be disappointed!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Same situation
Had a mate just ring me and say that he had a start date with a carrier back in Oz and also with Cathay. He is late thirties and will be in the right seat of a regional jet in his home country or in Hong Kong sitting in the back watching the operation for who knows how long. With time to command of 13 years or more he will be early 50's and probably with children, which he doesn't have at the moment, before making the left seat. In Oz the time to command will be considerably shorter and with all the inherent problems associated with coming to Hong Kong, i.e. pollution, cost of living, acidic flight ops management, continually erroding conditions of service, lethargic union representation, I was very quick to tell him to remain in Oz and enjoy his lifestyle. I struggle to think of a positive for a new joiner with RA65 and the new COS. My advice is to stay with your current employer. How times have changed in a decade. Hope you are happy either way with your decision and that 2008 is a good one for you. Cheers Three Bear.
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If you can get your child into the Australian International school you will be out of pocket $53710 per year, per student for primary with the bus service....nearly two months salary. How guys with two or more kids do it is a mystery...plus it gets more expensive for grades 7 onwards. I haven't added the extra curricular activities costs either.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Makes you feel great
Education Allowance?
What a farce! No one can get into ESF so if you are in the AIS or CAD or frence case you are screwed.. COP the 5% increase in fees end of 2007. No lube nothing no even a little sweet nothing whispered into your ear before ---PINEAAAAAAPLE COP that .
Friends in HK working for the big 5 don't even have this problem enter into their heads. Its ALL COVERED.
Its all becoming about lifestyle now and (Oh? did I just detect a whiff of sulphur?). But hey Beijing just announced they had 267 completely BLUE SKY days for 2007 - YOU LYING PLICKS
Make the money and get the F*** out of dodge
What a farce! No one can get into ESF so if you are in the AIS or CAD or frence case you are screwed.. COP the 5% increase in fees end of 2007. No lube nothing no even a little sweet nothing whispered into your ear before ---PINEAAAAAAPLE COP that .
Friends in HK working for the big 5 don't even have this problem enter into their heads. Its ALL COVERED.
Its all becoming about lifestyle now and (Oh? did I just detect a whiff of sulphur?). But hey Beijing just announced they had 267 completely BLUE SKY days for 2007 - YOU LYING PLICKS
Make the money and get the F*** out of dodge
