How short of aircrew are we ?
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Join Date: May 2001
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How short of aircrew are we ?
The consequences of being woefully short of aircrew
The company are now regularly (several times a week) using reserve pilots for a callout, (often to Vancouver...), and then reducing their rest on arrival under the guise of a roster disruption. These crew are then given minimum rest at the airport hotel (the length of the preceding duty period), and then operate back to Hong Kong.
Remember that the term "roster disruption" was intended to cover typhoons and other major events where many rosters were disrupted. It is designed as a device to get the airline's operations back on track in these circumstances.
Crew sickness does not constitute a roster disruption. If you are called out to cover a crew sickness then you must have normal physiological rest. In some cases there was no crew member rostered to operate the aircraft in the first place !
There are also more situations arising where the company is requesting that an aircraft be operated with a reduced 3 crew compliment to return it to Hong Kong, using commanders discretion. If you have already had reduced rest then you should be well acquainted with section 24.6 of the appropriate manual. The wording "exceptional circumstances" was never meant to be taken lightly, and was never meant cover crew sickness, or low manning levels.
Remember, these are all the consequences of poor airline planning. we are now desperately short of aircrew. Keep it legal. If a letter to CAD is required, then submit it. Don't get caught bending the rules. It is your career you are dealing with here.
The company are now regularly (several times a week) using reserve pilots for a callout, (often to Vancouver...), and then reducing their rest on arrival under the guise of a roster disruption. These crew are then given minimum rest at the airport hotel (the length of the preceding duty period), and then operate back to Hong Kong.
Remember that the term "roster disruption" was intended to cover typhoons and other major events where many rosters were disrupted. It is designed as a device to get the airline's operations back on track in these circumstances.
Crew sickness does not constitute a roster disruption. If you are called out to cover a crew sickness then you must have normal physiological rest. In some cases there was no crew member rostered to operate the aircraft in the first place !
There are also more situations arising where the company is requesting that an aircraft be operated with a reduced 3 crew compliment to return it to Hong Kong, using commanders discretion. If you have already had reduced rest then you should be well acquainted with section 24.6 of the appropriate manual. The wording "exceptional circumstances" was never meant to be taken lightly, and was never meant cover crew sickness, or low manning levels.
Remember, these are all the consequences of poor airline planning. we are now desperately short of aircrew. Keep it legal. If a letter to CAD is required, then submit it. Don't get caught bending the rules. It is your career you are dealing with here.
Cool as a moosp
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That YVR trick has been played for years. At least three that I know of, when it was done to my F/Os. It is way outside of the Roster Disruption agreement, and is rostered when the flight is uncovered. This is one that the AOA should attack.
As to the thread title, from anecdotal evidence, very short.
It is the subtle things. How stable is your roster compared to two years ago? Listen to the tone of the crew controllers voice, how stressed are they? Recently I hear stress. Ask around, how are your colleagues rosters? How much overtime is both rostered and flown? Seriously high overtime pay is being paid, which is a total anathema to a schedulers mind.
Best that can happen is overtime. Worst you already experience, so I shall not enumerate.
What to do? Collate the evidence, use it either as support in negotiations, to CAD to show non compliance, or to the lawyers for a civil court case.
As to the thread title, from anecdotal evidence, very short.
It is the subtle things. How stable is your roster compared to two years ago? Listen to the tone of the crew controllers voice, how stressed are they? Recently I hear stress. Ask around, how are your colleagues rosters? How much overtime is both rostered and flown? Seriously high overtime pay is being paid, which is a total anathema to a schedulers mind.
Best that can happen is overtime. Worst you already experience, so I shall not enumerate.
What to do? Collate the evidence, use it either as support in negotiations, to CAD to show non compliance, or to the lawyers for a civil court case.
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From the Friday brief:
“The only assurance I can give you (and the AOA) is that the Company is determined to recruit and train sufficient 744 Freighter crew such that the occasions when a passenger 744 captain will be rostered to fly the freighter will be few and far between.”
Now where have I heard this before…. OH YES. When a duty changes, reserve will only be used in exceptional cases. NOT SO, every single roster change I had automatically change to reserve, every mate I talked to had the same experience. Sometimes for as short a time as 4 hour reserve, just enough to spoil lifestyle.
Sorry N.R. fell for that once, not again.
“The only assurance I can give you (and the AOA) is that the Company is determined to recruit and train sufficient 744 Freighter crew such that the occasions when a passenger 744 captain will be rostered to fly the freighter will be few and far between.”
Now where have I heard this before…. OH YES. When a duty changes, reserve will only be used in exceptional cases. NOT SO, every single roster change I had automatically change to reserve, every mate I talked to had the same experience. Sometimes for as short a time as 4 hour reserve, just enough to spoil lifestyle.
Sorry N.R. fell for that once, not again.
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“The only assurance I can give you (and the AOA) is that the Company is determined to recruit and train sufficient 744 Freighter crew such that the occasions when a passenger 744 captain will be rostered to fly the freighter will be few and far between.
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Call crew control and tell them you are too fatigued to do the flight. That easy, next. Oh, sticking you head above the parapet thingy is it.
Don’t write an ASR/MOR as that will stick your head well above the parapet. Maybe a CHIRP, yes that’s it a CHIRP. A CHIRP gets filed to the GMA and does absolutely nothing about it. CAD has no idea it is happening.
If you don’t write an ASR/MOR nothing will be done. If you don’t want to write an ASR/MOR, don’t complain.
Do you realize that anyone can write an ASR/MOR i.e. First and Second Officers included?
Of course you may be called and intimidated not to send it in as an MOR, but decline the offer, send it in.
Next!
Don’t write an ASR/MOR as that will stick your head well above the parapet. Maybe a CHIRP, yes that’s it a CHIRP. A CHIRP gets filed to the GMA and does absolutely nothing about it. CAD has no idea it is happening.
If you don’t write an ASR/MOR nothing will be done. If you don’t want to write an ASR/MOR, don’t complain.
Do you realize that anyone can write an ASR/MOR i.e. First and Second Officers included?
Of course you may be called and intimidated not to send it in as an MOR, but decline the offer, send it in.
Next!
Roster 'Disruption'
Took it up with manager scheduling...
"the regulator and I feel that physiological rest is not really required and has little or no effect on accumulative fatigue"
Do you Honestly believe they give a ****?
"the regulator and I feel that physiological rest is not really required and has little or no effect on accumulative fatigue"
Do you Honestly believe they give a ****?
WTF?
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you're not alone
(Here's me thinking: Hmm , sounds like my airline exactly.Funny thing that , since it's a regional in the EU.
Typical how these problems/excuses/practices seem to be universal and international.
"You can't possibly be fatigued , that's a problem on longhaul only..."After switching from a late to an early , then doing minimum rest followed by a twelve hour/five sector day I beg to differ.Or crewplanning running out of standby's..for the NEXT day.Go figure.)
Typical how these problems/excuses/practices seem to be universal and international.
"You can't possibly be fatigued , that's a problem on longhaul only..."After switching from a late to an early , then doing minimum rest followed by a twelve hour/five sector day I beg to differ.Or crewplanning running out of standby's..for the NEXT day.Go figure.)
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You may have not had a good night sleep the night before because they put you at the airport with 737-200 screaming overhead at 2 am or if you are ULH and trying to sleep in the day with the same A/C screaming overhead.
Do they use after burners with those things?
Fatigue is fatigue. I can have fatigue without having cumulative fatigue. As it was said, up all night then doing an all day flight.
I have seen some good stuff from LHR based pilots doing a full days work starting at 8am HKT.
Just remember fatigue is fatigue and can happen with no sleep. You just have to have the balls to call it. It’s not worth your career.
Damn, parapet thing again!
Do they use after burners with those things?
Fatigue is fatigue. I can have fatigue without having cumulative fatigue. As it was said, up all night then doing an all day flight.
I have seen some good stuff from LHR based pilots doing a full days work starting at 8am HKT.
Just remember fatigue is fatigue and can happen with no sleep. You just have to have the balls to call it. It’s not worth your career.
Damn, parapet thing again!
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The CHIRP route:
1. Gets filed with Corporate Safety
2. Sent to the GMA or Soyland for action
3. Filed under, “we do what we want”
CAD has no idea what is happening, so nothing gets done. The CHIRP route, takes about 6 months to get filed under “we do what we want”.
Very effective route, if you don’t wish to stick you head up, but then again that’s who we are.
1. Gets filed with Corporate Safety
2. Sent to the GMA or Soyland for action
3. Filed under, “we do what we want”
CAD has no idea what is happening, so nothing gets done. The CHIRP route, takes about 6 months to get filed under “we do what we want”.
Very effective route, if you don’t wish to stick you head up, but then again that’s who we are.
