Command Failure Rates
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Easy answer
Well gone away for leave and thought you all would a solved this !
Flex, Couple of points.
As far as cost for training ( well actually cost for command courses as opposed to "training" goes it probably is not as simple as it looks. The FOs that are able to move right to left to do a command have some advantage under the current system. Those that change aircraft to do command have it a little harder. It is those FOs that may alter the appearance of cost per successful candidate. It is common sense that a command candidate will do better on a familiar airplane. So BBS in their wisdom decide to throw the FOs straight into the command course, knowing it is not the ideal situation but that if more than half pass then it is cheaper than checking them on to the airplane for 6 mos (or whatever)as an FO proir to a command course.
After someone fails the command course they then do 1 year or so in the right seat and viola pass the second time with very few exceptions. The down side of all of this is the toll it takes on the unsuccessfull candidates.
So for all we know BBS is quite happy to carry on this way as it is cheaper than giving two courses to every FO who must change aircraft for command. However the statistics show that there is still a high initial failure of candidates who attempt on the same aircraft, but that is a whole other problem and is offset by the above.
On another point, perfection is a long way from 55% ( exactly 45% away as a matter of fact). Most pilots realise that 100% pass rate is not a realistic goal, however a pass rate more in line with similar air carriers would be nice.
Not sure how you come up with a strategy for luck, as that is what makes the difference in most cases.
My 2 cents.
Flex, Couple of points.
As far as cost for training ( well actually cost for command courses as opposed to "training" goes it probably is not as simple as it looks. The FOs that are able to move right to left to do a command have some advantage under the current system. Those that change aircraft to do command have it a little harder. It is those FOs that may alter the appearance of cost per successful candidate. It is common sense that a command candidate will do better on a familiar airplane. So BBS in their wisdom decide to throw the FOs straight into the command course, knowing it is not the ideal situation but that if more than half pass then it is cheaper than checking them on to the airplane for 6 mos (or whatever)as an FO proir to a command course.
After someone fails the command course they then do 1 year or so in the right seat and viola pass the second time with very few exceptions. The down side of all of this is the toll it takes on the unsuccessfull candidates.
So for all we know BBS is quite happy to carry on this way as it is cheaper than giving two courses to every FO who must change aircraft for command. However the statistics show that there is still a high initial failure of candidates who attempt on the same aircraft, but that is a whole other problem and is offset by the above.
On another point, perfection is a long way from 55% ( exactly 45% away as a matter of fact). Most pilots realise that 100% pass rate is not a realistic goal, however a pass rate more in line with similar air carriers would be nice.
Not sure how you come up with a strategy for luck, as that is what makes the difference in most cases.
My 2 cents.
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Reality check
There are plenty of pilots in Europe and the US that are getting direct entry jet commands that are non type rated and some do not even have any previous jet time.
Changing types is just getting another type rating, I don't get what the big deal is.
Those airlines' safety records are no better or worse than Cathay's. At the end of the day that is what it's all about.
And another thing that is almost for certain, there are a lot less cock-ups swept under the carpet over there than in this part of the world.
There are plenty of pilots in Europe and the US that are getting direct entry jet commands that are non type rated and some do not even have any previous jet time.
Changing types is just getting another type rating, I don't get what the big deal is.
Those airlines' safety records are no better or worse than Cathay's. At the end of the day that is what it's all about.
And another thing that is almost for certain, there are a lot less cock-ups swept under the carpet over there than in this part of the world.
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"And another thing that is almost for certain, there are a lot less cock-ups swept under the carpet over there than in this part of the world."
This is an important point. The total lack of transparency in the airline industry in HKG and Asia in general means that many things can be conveniently overlooked in a way not possible in a western country. How many times would CX/KA "self report" transgressions to CAD as happens in the US, aus etc. CX have had some pretty major "events" that are barely mentioned in the world press and could create a rosier picture than that of other carriers that live under the microscope.
This is an important point. The total lack of transparency in the airline industry in HKG and Asia in general means that many things can be conveniently overlooked in a way not possible in a western country. How many times would CX/KA "self report" transgressions to CAD as happens in the US, aus etc. CX have had some pretty major "events" that are barely mentioned in the world press and could create a rosier picture than that of other carriers that live under the microscope.
we have had our share of incidents, no denying that.
However would you care to enlighten us as to which ones were "swept under the carpet"?
mmm..................well go on then.
However would you care to enlighten us as to which ones were "swept under the carpet"?
mmm..................well go on then.
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Or....
...a certain CPwho xxxxxxx in TPE and really xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Bet HIS xxxxxxxxxx didn't get presented at Fleet Forums like some articles have over the last year!
And then there was ......
Carefull you don't open a can of worms ACMS.
And then there was ......
Carefull you don't open a can of worms ACMS.
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Thanks for the invitation but I will refrain from mentioning the low profile screwups as there is little to be gained from throwing mud at CX in public.
I do fing it surprising to discuss this topic with old timer CX pilots who can name many major stuffups that simply dont see the light of day.
I do fing it surprising to discuss this topic with old timer CX pilots who can name many major stuffups that simply dont see the light of day.
iLuvPX:
what the?????????
you mean to tell me one of our 400's lands short in Mnl, takes out approach lights, obviously damages the aircraft and CX covered it up?????
I don't think so buster.
If they did cover it up then it would have taken a hell of a lot of bribery in Manila, the engineering dept, the other flight crew and pax.
Couldn't be done.
The 330 Heavy landing in TPE by the CP was not covered up, he made a full report, it was investigated and published.
Although what punishment a normal Captain would have received is another thing..........
What about last year when a 744 management pilot landed a one short in manilla, taking out part of the approach lights?
you mean to tell me one of our 400's lands short in Mnl, takes out approach lights, obviously damages the aircraft and CX covered it up?????
I don't think so buster.
If they did cover it up then it would have taken a hell of a lot of bribery in Manila, the engineering dept, the other flight crew and pax.
Couldn't be done.
The 330 Heavy landing in TPE by the CP was not covered up, he made a full report, it was investigated and published.
Although what punishment a normal Captain would have received is another thing..........
It depends on what you mean by "swept under the carpet"
do you mean - reported but kept quiet
or do you mean - never reported in the first place.
I'm sorry but what utter rubbish.
Let me get this straight: A 400 hits approach lights, damages the aircraft, the lights and then no body says anything.................you must be bloody kidding.
And if your mate was the FO then he should have put in his own ASR or even a confidential report. What about the Manila authorities? don't you think they would launch an inquiry into who damaged their runway approach lights?
Not to mention the ground engineers who turned around the aircraft.
You are grasping at straws my friend.
Not only that the FDAP reports would have come through as well.
I can believe it may have happened, but for it to have been "swept under the carpet" utter BS.
Not one single rumour went round about this supposed incident.
do you mean - reported but kept quiet
or do you mean - never reported in the first place.
I'm sorry but what utter rubbish.
Let me get this straight: A 400 hits approach lights, damages the aircraft, the lights and then no body says anything.................you must be bloody kidding.
And if your mate was the FO then he should have put in his own ASR or even a confidential report. What about the Manila authorities? don't you think they would launch an inquiry into who damaged their runway approach lights?
Not to mention the ground engineers who turned around the aircraft.
You are grasping at straws my friend.
Not only that the FDAP reports would have come through as well.
I can believe it may have happened, but for it to have been "swept under the carpet" utter BS.
Not one single rumour went round about this supposed incident.
Ok ACMS,
As you are the keeper of all things true and wise kindly tell us all about the CX 744 just out of the hangar the other month that flew to TPE to do some runway improvements with its gear doors?
As you are the keeper of all things true and wise kindly tell us all about the CX 744 just out of the hangar the other month that flew to TPE to do some runway improvements with its gear doors?
You know what's really sad? The number of discussions that get hijacked by a pathetic minority of employees with some kind of axe to grind. It's little wonder that the vast majority of CX pilots don't bother with Pprune these days.
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You know whats really, really sad Buzzbox? Copying and pasting the same post across multiple threads due to a lack originality and intelligence.
Ref "Sacked on Purpose" #45
Ref "Sacked on Purpose" #45
iLuvPX said:
Care to try and add any factual information to this allegation? I don't think "my mate was on the flight" lends very much credibility to this story.
Perhaps a little more detail might also assist your credibility?
What about last year when a 744 management pilot landed a one short in manilla, taking out part of the approach lights?
Perhaps a little more detail might also assist your credibility?
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The people we work for will do whatever possible to "save face". That is their mentality.
Despite what FR and his cousin might think this is not the place to air one's dirty laundry.
Back to the original post
"we have had our share of incidents, no denying that."
Since the end result is the same, Cx's and KA's anal approach to aviation is nothing but a waist of time, effort and resources.
Despite what FR and his cousin might think this is not the place to air one's dirty laundry.
Back to the original post
"we have had our share of incidents, no denying that."
Since the end result is the same, Cx's and KA's anal approach to aviation is nothing but a waist of time, effort and resources.
badairsucker: I seem to remember the tail skid scrape. The FO was the PM but did get the blame from the Training Captain I think? not too good 
infact didn't the FO resign after? Not a blue chip day for the 777 crew.
Shot Nancy
do tell us more?
If this has any truth then it will be in the Safety mag in a month or two, then we can read the report.
I maintain that we have a pretty good reporting culture here in Cx and these incidents are being reported and acted apon.
infact didn't the FO resign after? Not a blue chip day for the 777 crew.Shot Nancy
CX 744 just out of the hangar the other month that flew to TPE to do some runway improvements with its gear doors?
If this has any truth then it will be in the Safety mag in a month or two, then we can read the report.
I maintain that we have a pretty good reporting culture here in Cx and these incidents are being reported and acted apon.