American Leaves CO for CX...
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American Leaves CO for CX...
As an American, would I be crazy to leave Continental to go to Cathay? If what I read here is true I would make a lot more money and have more vacation initially, but I could never upgrade to command on the Cargo fleet, would have to pay extra taxes (HK), would be discriminated against for being a Yank, and could lose my job for sneezing in the wrong direction. Can anyone enlighten me as to the reality of what goes on over there? I am trying to decide what to do while the offer is still on the table.
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Pax or Freighter
Is the offer on the Pax fleet or the Freighter fleet? I would be careful about accepting a freighter offer at the moment - would be a shame to miss out on a far superior pax job.
Milly
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On leaving Continental for Cathay
Mark Skid:
Take Milly's comment for what it's worth. If you're offered a DEFO job on the passenger fleet, take it. I haven't heard of any offerings for North American passenger DEFO's, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It pays a lot more (at least until the conditions of service change. The last effort to try to "align" the conditions of service for passenger/freighter pilots didn't work out too well. The pilot group wisely rejected it, recognizing it for what it was - a shafting for the new guys AND the current SO's.). I disagree with Milly that passenger F/O is a better job. If I could have passenger pay for flying the freighter, THAT would be the best of both worlds in my view.
Having said that, here's my reply:
Take a lot of the negativity re: Cathay with a grain of salt. While (that's "whilst" for the Queen's subjects reading this post, hehehe) there is some truth to the negative comments, the conditions here are not at all as negative as some would have you believe.
For my part, I'm very happy here.
I'm based in JFK on the freighter, by the way.
Most Americans who have joined Cathay in the last couple of years are airline refugees. Of those refugees, some plan to return to their old jobs when recalled, some are trying to get hired by UPS/FedEx, and some hope to make Cathay their long-term home. As an aside, it appears that lately the pool of high-time oldster refugees is drying up, and Cathay has begun fishing in the regional pilot pool.
Cathay is NOT for everybody. I should repeat that: Cathay is NOT for everybody!! From my perspective, the key to success is to try mightily to just "fit in". That means simply recognizing that Mister Swire owns all of the toys in the toybox, and has the right to tell you EXACTLY how to play with them. And if you play with Mister Swire's toys EXACTLY as you're told, everything will be fine. However, if you don't, your shortcomings will most likely be brought to your attention with varying degrees of diplomacy. Rather than thinking about what an undiplomatic dick the guy next to you is, it's probably best just to focus on eliminating your errors. It'll make your next sim ride easier anyway.
The bottom line analysis needs to focus on at least 4 issues: money, benefits, quality of life, and job security.
1. Money: The money might be a "wash". If you get on a widebody at Continental early, you might even make more money over a career. The uncertainty of WHEN you will upgrade to captain at Cathay makes the determination of career earnings a little tricky.
2. Benefits: The medical benefits are fantastic (at least while you're working). (Oddly, however, pap smears, breast exams, and vasectomies are not covered.) There is no dental coverage. And perhaps most importantly (at least to an old guy like me), there is no medical coverage for retirees. This might be because most CX pilots have some form of national health coverage available in retirement. I'm just speculating on this point, because I can't imagine why else this would be the case. The 15.5% Provident Fund kicker (whether you take it in cash, or in the Provident Fund) isn't bad either.
3. Quality of life: As a freighter F/O I have a TON of time off. Plus vacation. But quality of life includes the quality of your work life. The quality of my life in the cockpit is very, very good. I enjoy virtually all of the crewmembers I fly with (whether they are diplomatic or not. Most are, by the way.) The training environment is another story, perhaps. I've come to realize that the problems with the training at Cathay are mostly systemic - that is, Cathay "training" culture is really just checking - but this is made MUCH worse as we pay attention to the whining of our colleagues. While in training, your colleagues are your WORST enemies. Without the infectious stress they spew around, "training" here would be much easier.
4. Job security: This is a bit of an irony: Cathay is probably one of the most financially secure airlines in the world. And they're determined to remain that way. So from that standpoint, this is a VERY secure job.
However, the company can "sack" you at any time, for any reason. You'll get 3 months severance (after you've been here a year), and you'll get shown the door. Period. Having said that, Cathay is in the business of running an airline, not terrorizing its employees. So from my perspective, they would only fire a pilot for cause.
Now, before the other ppruners jump on my face, I suppose I should make the obligatory mention of the 49'ers. I've flown with 3 freighter 49'er captains - all magnificent chaps, by the way. And I'm convinced that these were good men, and good employees. Not flawless employees, but certainly not the sort of persons deserving of summary dismissal. They were, in my view, "collateral damage" in a pissing contest between the company and the AOA. In any event, the one thing you have at Continental that we do NOT have at Cathay is the Railway Labor Act. There is enormous protection for airline employees under the RLA. If you're not familiar with it, you should be. The RLA, in combination with your contract, almost make termination from a U.S. airline impossible.
None of this directly answers the question of whether you should leave Continental for Cathay. Part of the calculus that's missing here is personal to you: How old are you? What's your experience level? How willing are you to just "fit in"? - (which for me, requires LOTS of continuous study - something I'm not used to doing for my flying job. This, by the way, is partially necessitated by the small amount of work I'm required to do each month. It's easy to forget even normal procedures when you only perform them a few times each month.) Are you interested in living in Hong Kong? (Not a requirement, as far as I'm concerned. From where I sit, it appears you could stay on a U.S. basing your entire career, but HK is where the real money is.)
If I were in your situation, it would be a difficult choice for me. Having been on both sides of the question, the grass is greener on both sides of the fence! They're just different flavors of grass!!! For me, Cathay would be perfect if I had retirement medical benefits, a "train to proficiency" culture, and the shield of the Railway Labor Act. But at Continental you won't have the opportunity to have a crack at command on a 747 after a couple of years, either...
Good luck making your decision!
Take Milly's comment for what it's worth. If you're offered a DEFO job on the passenger fleet, take it. I haven't heard of any offerings for North American passenger DEFO's, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It pays a lot more (at least until the conditions of service change. The last effort to try to "align" the conditions of service for passenger/freighter pilots didn't work out too well. The pilot group wisely rejected it, recognizing it for what it was - a shafting for the new guys AND the current SO's.). I disagree with Milly that passenger F/O is a better job. If I could have passenger pay for flying the freighter, THAT would be the best of both worlds in my view.
Having said that, here's my reply:
Take a lot of the negativity re: Cathay with a grain of salt. While (that's "whilst" for the Queen's subjects reading this post, hehehe) there is some truth to the negative comments, the conditions here are not at all as negative as some would have you believe.
For my part, I'm very happy here.
I'm based in JFK on the freighter, by the way.Most Americans who have joined Cathay in the last couple of years are airline refugees. Of those refugees, some plan to return to their old jobs when recalled, some are trying to get hired by UPS/FedEx, and some hope to make Cathay their long-term home. As an aside, it appears that lately the pool of high-time oldster refugees is drying up, and Cathay has begun fishing in the regional pilot pool.
Cathay is NOT for everybody. I should repeat that: Cathay is NOT for everybody!! From my perspective, the key to success is to try mightily to just "fit in". That means simply recognizing that Mister Swire owns all of the toys in the toybox, and has the right to tell you EXACTLY how to play with them. And if you play with Mister Swire's toys EXACTLY as you're told, everything will be fine. However, if you don't, your shortcomings will most likely be brought to your attention with varying degrees of diplomacy. Rather than thinking about what an undiplomatic dick the guy next to you is, it's probably best just to focus on eliminating your errors. It'll make your next sim ride easier anyway.
The bottom line analysis needs to focus on at least 4 issues: money, benefits, quality of life, and job security.
1. Money: The money might be a "wash". If you get on a widebody at Continental early, you might even make more money over a career. The uncertainty of WHEN you will upgrade to captain at Cathay makes the determination of career earnings a little tricky.
2. Benefits: The medical benefits are fantastic (at least while you're working). (Oddly, however, pap smears, breast exams, and vasectomies are not covered.) There is no dental coverage. And perhaps most importantly (at least to an old guy like me), there is no medical coverage for retirees. This might be because most CX pilots have some form of national health coverage available in retirement. I'm just speculating on this point, because I can't imagine why else this would be the case. The 15.5% Provident Fund kicker (whether you take it in cash, or in the Provident Fund) isn't bad either.
3. Quality of life: As a freighter F/O I have a TON of time off. Plus vacation. But quality of life includes the quality of your work life. The quality of my life in the cockpit is very, very good. I enjoy virtually all of the crewmembers I fly with (whether they are diplomatic or not. Most are, by the way.) The training environment is another story, perhaps. I've come to realize that the problems with the training at Cathay are mostly systemic - that is, Cathay "training" culture is really just checking - but this is made MUCH worse as we pay attention to the whining of our colleagues. While in training, your colleagues are your WORST enemies. Without the infectious stress they spew around, "training" here would be much easier.
4. Job security: This is a bit of an irony: Cathay is probably one of the most financially secure airlines in the world. And they're determined to remain that way. So from that standpoint, this is a VERY secure job.
However, the company can "sack" you at any time, for any reason. You'll get 3 months severance (after you've been here a year), and you'll get shown the door. Period. Having said that, Cathay is in the business of running an airline, not terrorizing its employees. So from my perspective, they would only fire a pilot for cause.
Now, before the other ppruners jump on my face, I suppose I should make the obligatory mention of the 49'ers. I've flown with 3 freighter 49'er captains - all magnificent chaps, by the way. And I'm convinced that these were good men, and good employees. Not flawless employees, but certainly not the sort of persons deserving of summary dismissal. They were, in my view, "collateral damage" in a pissing contest between the company and the AOA. In any event, the one thing you have at Continental that we do NOT have at Cathay is the Railway Labor Act. There is enormous protection for airline employees under the RLA. If you're not familiar with it, you should be. The RLA, in combination with your contract, almost make termination from a U.S. airline impossible.
None of this directly answers the question of whether you should leave Continental for Cathay. Part of the calculus that's missing here is personal to you: How old are you? What's your experience level? How willing are you to just "fit in"? - (which for me, requires LOTS of continuous study - something I'm not used to doing for my flying job. This, by the way, is partially necessitated by the small amount of work I'm required to do each month. It's easy to forget even normal procedures when you only perform them a few times each month.) Are you interested in living in Hong Kong? (Not a requirement, as far as I'm concerned. From where I sit, it appears you could stay on a U.S. basing your entire career, but HK is where the real money is.)
If I were in your situation, it would be a difficult choice for me. Having been on both sides of the question, the grass is greener on both sides of the fence! They're just different flavors of grass!!! For me, Cathay would be perfect if I had retirement medical benefits, a "train to proficiency" culture, and the shield of the Railway Labor Act. But at Continental you won't have the opportunity to have a crack at command on a 747 after a couple of years, either...
Good luck making your decision!
Mark Skid:
I agree. Baseddude's analysis is the most balanced and informative post I've seen here for a long time. You'd do well to ignore the juvenile rantings posted elsewhere on this forum.
Good luck!
I agree. Baseddude's analysis is the most balanced and informative post I've seen here for a long time. You'd do well to ignore the juvenile rantings posted elsewhere on this forum.
Good luck!
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I'm impressed Baseddude! You have painted a very accurate picture which simply explains each point of view depending on "fitting in" or not.
For those that do...it's a good job and for those that don't...it's hell!
For those that do...it's a good job and for those that don't...it's hell!
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Thanks Baseddude, I really appreciate the information. As this is a big decision for me to make, it's nice to get an even-handed view of Cathay with out the usual rhetoric. I am waiting for some more information, such as where my basing will be, and just how much will I enjoy flying for CO (I'm still in training).
I have a military/regional mixed background which means I'm programmed to fit in as well as to display some masochistic tendencies. Also, I'm and oldie as well with an English wife who wants to move to the UK while the kids are young (if possible) so I do have some thinking to do.
I have some friends in training over in Cathay City that will be able to give me some good feedback 6 or 8 months down the road when they are online.
Once again, thanks.
- Mark Skid
I have a military/regional mixed background which means I'm programmed to fit in as well as to display some masochistic tendencies. Also, I'm and oldie as well with an English wife who wants to move to the UK while the kids are young (if possible) so I do have some thinking to do.
I have some friends in training over in Cathay City that will be able to give me some good feedback 6 or 8 months down the road when they are online.
Once again, thanks.
- Mark Skid
One other detail to consider.
While working in HK for CX you will be subject to very low tax rates.
As an American Citizen , however you are always subject to federal tax.
No matter where you work.
While working in HK for CX you will be subject to very low tax rates.
As an American Citizen , however you are always subject to federal tax.
No matter where you work.
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Regarding Expat Americans being subject to U.S. Taxes, the gentleman above is sort of correct. As an American citizen, you always have to file but if you actually reside outside of the U.S., you may be eligible for the foreign earned income exclusion (first $84,000 of foreign earned income is excluded from taxation for overseas residents). In addition, if you are residing in a country that taxes your income, you may be eligible for a credit for foreign taxes paid if that country has a tax treaty with the United States. I'm not sure if Hong Kong has a tax agreement with the U.S. or not but as with anything else concerning U.S. tax law, it can get complicated and it might be worth your while to research the issue to see exactly how you would be impacted by the various scenarios that you are researching.
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several times I've seen references made to the difference between Pax DEFO pay vs. FRT DEFO pay but I have not been able to find the Pax rate anywhere. Can someone enlighten me as to what it is or where I can find it. Also, Are they now hiring DEFO pax N. American?
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Cf, here's the Cathay scale for both pax & freighter fleet based in Hong Kong or the USA hence figures shown in US dollars.
If highly volatile fx currency markets are taken out of your 'bring home pay' equation, CX looks like a fantastic place to work. HKG is definitely where the money is at...
Cathay Pacific Passenger Fleet
Note: An officer’s rank reverts to “Step 1” upon promotion.
SR. CAPT
STEP 17 USD $17,440
STEP 16 USD $17,120
STEP 15 USD $16,810
STEP 14 USD $16,510
STEP 13 USD $16,210
STEP 12 USD $15,920
STEP 11 USD $15,640
STEP 10 USD $15,360
STEP 9 USD $15,080
STEP 8 USD $14,810
STEP 7 USD $14,550
STEP 6 USD $14,290
STEP 5 USD $14,040
STEP 4 USD $13,790-
STEP 3 USD $13,540-
STEP 2 USD $13,000
STEP 1 USD $13,070
CAPT
STEP 2 USD $12,840
STEP 1 USD $12,610
SR. F/O
STEP 6 USD $10,170
STEP 5 USD $9,913
STEP 4 USD $9,660
STEP 3 USD $9,420
STEP 2 USD $9,180
STEP 1 USD $8,960
YEAR F/O
STEP 4 USD $8,660
STEP 3 USD $8,520
STEP 2 USD $8,380
STEP 1 USD $8,240
YEAR JR. F/O
STEP 2 USD $7,100
STEP 1 USD $6,340
YEAR S/O
STEP 4 USD $5,800
STEP 3 USD $5,180
STEP 2 USD $4,640
STEP 1 USD $4,140
Cathay Pacific Freighter Fleet
Note: An officer’s rank reverts to “Step 1” upon promotion.
CAPT
STEP 11 USD $13,380
STEP 10 USD $13,120
STEP 9 USD $12,860
STEP 8 USD $12,610
STEP 7 USD $12,360
STEP 6 USD $12,120
STEP 5 USD $11,190
STEP 4 USD $10,970
STEP 3 USD $10,750
STEP 2 USD $10,540
STEP 1 USD $10,330
F/O
STEP 10 USD $8,620
STEP 9 USD $8,490
STEP 8 USD $8,360
STEP 7 USD $7,940
STEP 6 USD $7,501
STEP 5 USD $7,253
STEP 4 USD $6,750
STEP 3 USD $6,290
STEP 2 USD $5,790
STEP 1 USD $5,290
If highly volatile fx currency markets are taken out of your 'bring home pay' equation, CX looks like a fantastic place to work. HKG is definitely where the money is at...
Cathay Pacific Passenger Fleet
Note: An officer’s rank reverts to “Step 1” upon promotion.
SR. CAPT
STEP 17 USD $17,440
STEP 16 USD $17,120
STEP 15 USD $16,810
STEP 14 USD $16,510
STEP 13 USD $16,210
STEP 12 USD $15,920
STEP 11 USD $15,640
STEP 10 USD $15,360
STEP 9 USD $15,080
STEP 8 USD $14,810
STEP 7 USD $14,550
STEP 6 USD $14,290
STEP 5 USD $14,040
STEP 4 USD $13,790-
STEP 3 USD $13,540-
STEP 2 USD $13,000
STEP 1 USD $13,070
CAPT
STEP 2 USD $12,840
STEP 1 USD $12,610
SR. F/O
STEP 6 USD $10,170
STEP 5 USD $9,913
STEP 4 USD $9,660
STEP 3 USD $9,420
STEP 2 USD $9,180
STEP 1 USD $8,960
YEAR F/O
STEP 4 USD $8,660
STEP 3 USD $8,520
STEP 2 USD $8,380
STEP 1 USD $8,240
YEAR JR. F/O
STEP 2 USD $7,100
STEP 1 USD $6,340
YEAR S/O
STEP 4 USD $5,800
STEP 3 USD $5,180
STEP 2 USD $4,640
STEP 1 USD $4,140
Cathay Pacific Freighter Fleet
Note: An officer’s rank reverts to “Step 1” upon promotion.
CAPT
STEP 11 USD $13,380
STEP 10 USD $13,120
STEP 9 USD $12,860
STEP 8 USD $12,610
STEP 7 USD $12,360
STEP 6 USD $12,120
STEP 5 USD $11,190
STEP 4 USD $10,970
STEP 3 USD $10,750
STEP 2 USD $10,540
STEP 1 USD $10,330
F/O
STEP 10 USD $8,620
STEP 9 USD $8,490
STEP 8 USD $8,360
STEP 7 USD $7,940
STEP 6 USD $7,501
STEP 5 USD $7,253
STEP 4 USD $6,750
STEP 3 USD $6,290
STEP 2 USD $5,790
STEP 1 USD $5,290
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Why are there still so many guys out there who think CX is paying a decent salary even when looking at the figures ????
take the cpt salary freight U.S. e.g. ( I won't get into the discussion here how hard it is to even get to this point, let's assume you are a lucky guy, and you get your promotion after 5 years in the company) :
10330 US $
- Tax 35 % ( you have to pay US tax in any case!!!!)
= 6715 US $ net ( that is 5200 EURO or 3400 Sterling net !!!! )
there is no medical when retired, no dental and, if you don't live at the base ( and how could you afford to live in New York with that..) substract another 300-500 US a month travelling expenses. profit share ( with record numbers) was a whopping WEEKLY pay, there is no 13th month salary, no housing /school fee on base, no pay rise the last...., jesus,I can't remember,the only bonus you get is a humiliation in the sim every 6 month
..
with paye in force in Europe soon, the figures there look similar ridiculous !!
take the cpt salary freight U.S. e.g. ( I won't get into the discussion here how hard it is to even get to this point, let's assume you are a lucky guy, and you get your promotion after 5 years in the company) :
10330 US $
- Tax 35 % ( you have to pay US tax in any case!!!!)
= 6715 US $ net ( that is 5200 EURO or 3400 Sterling net !!!! )
there is no medical when retired, no dental and, if you don't live at the base ( and how could you afford to live in New York with that..) substract another 300-500 US a month travelling expenses. profit share ( with record numbers) was a whopping WEEKLY pay, there is no 13th month salary, no housing /school fee on base, no pay rise the last...., jesus,I can't remember,the only bonus you get is a humiliation in the sim every 6 month
..with paye in force in Europe soon, the figures there look similar ridiculous !!
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The attraction to CX (or the value the rest of us appreciate for that matter) is that in addition to your bring home pay CX pays a non-taxable housing allowance for officers based in hong kong, about 4,500 Euro p/month which equates to about USD $70,000.00 annually on-top of your salary (tax free).
As far as retirement schemes, CX has one of the best pilot retirement schemes available. Here in the States, B Plans & A Plans are disappearing fast as a result of airlines bankruptcy’s and being replaced with "matching" programs like 401k but require deductions from your own personal bring-home pay. Some of the most competitive programs are offered by FedEx, UPS & Southwest Airlines but still only match around 6-7% of your own personal contribution.
At CX, they are setting aside 15% of your monthly earnings into either a provident retirement fund or pilots can just elect to take the money upfront for investing in a retirement account. So, instead of a just a 13th month's salary "bonus" or whatever it means to you at the anniversary of your contract, CX is “gifting” you, tax-free, an additional USD $20,000-25,000 specifically for your retirement.
Inclusive of your housing allowance, at CX senior captains probably averaging an extra tax-free $90,000 USD ontop of their salary which is more than any 13th month salary bonus guys are getting in Korea, Japan & Taiwan. I think the whole idea is that CX wants you to stay for a career and even if you're based in the USA (I think) it's still a fantastic place to work.
Here in Nevada after age 65, private healthcare coverage thru Blue Cross probably wont run you anymore than auto insurance, but again that's here in Nevada with our Casino's picking up much of the tab.
As far as taxes go, (also a joke in Nevada haha) in Hong Kong they're so low it's often been said that Hong Kong is a "tax haven." In the U.S. on the other hand where we're typically taxed on our worldwide incomes, we're given an $80,000 tax CREDIT for Income Earned Overseas. So, if you're not already taking advantage of that or taking the discretionary factors above into consideration hopefully it's clear now why there are still so many guys out there who think CX pays a decent salary…
As far as retirement schemes, CX has one of the best pilot retirement schemes available. Here in the States, B Plans & A Plans are disappearing fast as a result of airlines bankruptcy’s and being replaced with "matching" programs like 401k but require deductions from your own personal bring-home pay. Some of the most competitive programs are offered by FedEx, UPS & Southwest Airlines but still only match around 6-7% of your own personal contribution.
At CX, they are setting aside 15% of your monthly earnings into either a provident retirement fund or pilots can just elect to take the money upfront for investing in a retirement account. So, instead of a just a 13th month's salary "bonus" or whatever it means to you at the anniversary of your contract, CX is “gifting” you, tax-free, an additional USD $20,000-25,000 specifically for your retirement.
Inclusive of your housing allowance, at CX senior captains probably averaging an extra tax-free $90,000 USD ontop of their salary which is more than any 13th month salary bonus guys are getting in Korea, Japan & Taiwan. I think the whole idea is that CX wants you to stay for a career and even if you're based in the USA (I think) it's still a fantastic place to work.
Here in Nevada after age 65, private healthcare coverage thru Blue Cross probably wont run you anymore than auto insurance, but again that's here in Nevada with our Casino's picking up much of the tab.
As far as taxes go, (also a joke in Nevada haha) in Hong Kong they're so low it's often been said that Hong Kong is a "tax haven." In the U.S. on the other hand where we're typically taxed on our worldwide incomes, we're given an $80,000 tax CREDIT for Income Earned Overseas. So, if you're not already taking advantage of that or taking the discretionary factors above into consideration hopefully it's clear now why there are still so many guys out there who think CX pays a decent salary…
Rice bowl licker
Wrong. If you take the rental assistance as cash or have the company pay off your mortgage in Hong Kong it is 100% taxable at the highest marginal tax rate of 19%. If you take the rental assistance and register the rental property with the company you pay additional tax that is equivalent to 10% of your gross income at the highest marginal rate, i.e. 19%.
Only those on a base will receive an additional 15.5% of their gross income in cash for them to invest for retirement. If you are based in Hong Kong it will be invested in the company’s provident fund. You will have no choice as to who manages it.
As for you previous post:
What volatile FX market are you talking about? The HK$ is pegged to the US$ so those Americans on a HK base aren’t effected by currency fluctuations. If you are from any other country like me, Australia, my take home pay in Australian dollars has dropped more than 40% in the last five years.
in addition to your bring home pay CX pays a non-taxable housing allowance for officers based in hong kong,
At CX, they are setting aside 15% of your monthly earnings into either a provident retirement fund or pilots can just elect to take the money upfront for investing in a retirement account.
As for you previous post:
If highly volatile fx currency markets are taken out of your 'bring home pay' equation, CX looks like a fantastic place to work. HKG is definitely where the money is at...