So who is the smarty pants?

[ACMS]

CAN-NOT..........removed your reply to my post hey?
Just so the rest of you know what he said "used the 15 mins to read the Vol2 Pt2 did you" or words very close to that.
What can I say Can-not????????????? ah....................
I actually got home to my family a bit quicker, which was nice And the Pax connecting to North America hopefully got home on time to theirs too. It's not about kissing the companies ass you know.

[LapSap]

Would you like me as your personal "spell check"?

In answer to your original question -sounds like you are.

[On the beach]

Great Thread

This is just the sort of pilot/controller interaction that leads to everyone having a greater understanding of the job. Can I point everyone towards another great co-operative initiative through this link:

"Free up the runways" written by pilots for pilots, sponsored by Eurocontrol.

http://www.eurocontrol.int/airports/...Runway/ROT.htm

On the beach

[throw a dyce]

Bedder,
Well did the CPA get away in front of the freighter? Maybe the tower controller did not have the right response.A big fat no taxi to J9 is the right answer,with the others going to J10.
It always puzzled me that J9 and J10 were regarded as the same TORA.OK it's about 50m less,but it is different.
I offered a medium J8 once.God that was funny.Ah I've only got 3000+ m Cannot Cannot.

[Bedder believeit]

On the beach: Thanks, but there has only been 2 controller's currently in HK making their views known, IGS and Moi. However we are both just about the oldest people here, so in my case I will claim partial (?) senility and keep bashing my head against the wall.

Throw a: We now have a procedure here "Reduced Runway Separation Minima" (RRSM) which fortunately was in action, and allowed the 777 to get away on an immediate from J9 ahead of the freighter. If we had been non RRSM (which is the usual case) and the 777 had gone to J10 then definitely NO.

Some people responding to this still seem to think that I am squawking about aircraft requesting J10. This is not the case at all. I will say it now once and for all to you drivers out there, I don't give a stuff where you ask to depart from, just a bit of well mannered notification in advance is all I want. And to add to that, if it is going to upset our (ATC) applecart, then expect to be delayed!!

[Numero Crunchero]

Bedder B,
most of us here have been around long enough to know when someone on the other end of the radio is being narccy....tone, intonation, brevity etc. So I am happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on this. I cannot remember the last time ATC screwed something up in HKG that I witnessed but I am sure it happens. I have seem many times when we screw it up...fortunately not too many of brushoff and wiggley worm colleagues!

It is always nice coming back to HKG airspace. Today it was incredibly busy on approach etc but all handled with the usual business like fair and impartial controlling...like a happier London control. Must be the predominance of us Aussies and those so polite Canucks that make it better here than Heathrow:-)

You guys have your aims in ensuring an efficient airport operation, we have our own. So far I haven't found that incompatible, though I wouldn't mind some home port favouritism sometime like they enjoy in KL etc!

cheers guys, keep up the good work.

[throw a dyce]

Bedder,
Thanks for that.Is your RRSM allowing the landing to touch down while the departure is past the point of no return,or allowing less than a runway length but airborne.
In the single runway days at CLK,we all had a few tight situations with slow vacaters,or departers and ''Management'' took a very dim view of it.I saw people suspended for moving traffic(legally in the UK).Even go-arounds could get you in trouble.Suspended for trying to be safe.
Numero,
I saw plenty screw ups at HK ATC,including 2 of the most dangerous things in 28 years.Maybe the London guys seem less happy because they have to stick to standard phraseology and they are a damn sight busier.There is no standard phraseology in HK because all the expats think they are doing and saying the right thing.What they do at home.

[Bedder believeit]

Throw a, I can't go into too much detail (I might get fired!) but between two landers, the following can be cleared to land if the the preceding is beyond a certain point on the runway and assured of vacating, and between an arrival with a departure, likewise the departing needs to be beyond a certain point (still on ground) before lander crosses fence. There are other limiting aspects, such as weather, wind shear, turbulence, wet runways, daylight etc. In both cases the landing should be informed of the situation. Now if I get sacked, can I have a job at your place?

[throw a dyce]

Ah the good old Land after and Land after the departing with a few twists throw in.I did one of those in single runway days,with a CPA 343 who took for ever to roll,and a China something Fokker100.Only 4km between them but highly dangerous .Tower sup was really twitching.
I think that you're public enemy number one for letting the cat out of the bag.I'll put a good word in for you here at ISZ if you get invited to the 4th floor for tea and congee.Pack your thermals it's snowing today.

[LapSap]

likewise the departing needs to be beyond a certain point (still on ground) before lander crosses fence.

Rather poorly interpreted and written in the AIP Supplement by CAD, however the ICAO PANS-ATM requirement is that the departure is airborne at the time when the arrival crosses the threshold.

Throw a dyce, you'll no doubt be relieved to hear that CAD couldn't help themselves but add another 500m to the ICAO standard on 07R/25L - coz this is Hong Kong. You remember.

.....landing clearance may be issued to an arriving aircraft provided that there is reasonable assurance
that the following separation distances will exist when the landing aircraft
crosses the runway threshold:
(a) RWY 07R/25L
(i) Landing following departure –
The departing aircraft is/will be airborne and has passed a point at
least

2 900 m from the threshold of the runway (abeam TWY K4

for RWY 07R or TWY K2 for RWY 25L).

There is no need for the extra "/will be" in the separation standard. The condition that must exist is that the aircraft is airborne. The application of the standard allows the controller to forecast that that condition will exist.

[Numero Crunchero]

Throw a and bedder b,
just to make it a bit clearer....
I LOVE COMING BACK TO HKG AIRSPACE
I dont know if it is as simple as just being home? Having travelled a bit further afield I dont think so. London is very efficient but maybe due to so many non confirming misfits they are always quite gruff.
Whatever the reason I personally think the ATC is great here and I am basing that on many trips to all continents except South America! It just seems so easy and efficient once I get back into our airspace even if I have to be ridiculously low at mango!

I get no special treatment here, no preferential landing time or taxy, just absolute professionalism! I am happy to criticise what is worth criticism....but from my biased, myopic line driver's point of view, you guys are doing great. Some of my multi bar colleagues may have secular viewpoints that are more critical.

From the vast majority of us, keep up the unrewarded good work...most of us appreciate it:-)

[Bedder believeit]

Lap Sap, looks like you now assume the mantle of "smarty pants". You can have it! Your last bit "allowing the controller to forecast that the condition will exist" is the difficult part. Once the dye is cast you just have to wear it.
We don't actually get to utilise RRSM here a hell of a lot as the only time during daylight hours that the South runway (07R/25L) is in multi modal operations is between about 9 in the morning and 12.30PM and there aren't a lot of freighter arrivals then. As for the North runway, which is generally landings only, the rather large mix of heavies to mediums means that wake turbulence issues tend to cover most situations, that, and the fact that the high speed turn offs (A7 & A8 on 07L and A6 & A5 on 25R) are pretty conveniently placed and runway occupancy time on the North is pretty low.

[gyro]

Bedder, any thoughts on Oicur12's earlier post? Almost hesitate to ask after watching the mileage suggesting consideration has got!!

We at Cathays Poor Cousin House really get frustrated by the way our powers that (won't) be refuse to have any constructive input into managing/mitigating extended delays. Is there a better way other than loading 100/200/300+ pax and only then being informed of a long delay? I appreciate the limitation of unfathomable decisions from across the border, but shirley this mouse trap could be constructed differently.

ClearedIGS, Took a young lady for a trip to XMN late last year, hope she didn't tell to many tales out of school...

[ClearedIGS]

Hi gyro, Don't remember any tales, but she did write a good report. It'll cost you to read a copy.
Regarding more notice re delays to up north, we really do sympathise, but there's not a lot we can do about it. You have to remember that we're not just trying to get you going, there is also Macao departures and the thru area traffic which is already in the air. We simply don't get the required notice. We might tell you that there is a 1 hour delay only to find 2 minutes later that our friends up north have changed the enroute requirements and now there is only 5 minutes delay. I don't get up to the Tower very often these days, but I remember once last year where when an aicraft was handed over to me for a 07 departure, I was told that his departure release time was change 3 times from when he was cleared to start & push until the time at which he called me. They were only changes of a few minutes but it really screws us around. How do you even start to explain something like that?

[gyro]

Try the situation were you get a 2+ hr delay, so in a vain attempt to quell the obvious mutiny, you allow the inflight meal to be served on the ground while you wait.... no sooner had the congee bowls hit the tray tables ..."strangled lizard 666, good news!!". Won't make that mistake again. These type of stories have been occurring for years, and the frustrating part for me is that none of the tadpoles in the aeronautical gene pool i'm paid to swim in have evolved any strategies for dealing with them. Oh well.

Apologies for taking Bedders thread off track, albeit a well travelled one

[SuzieWong]

As usual we get many Dotmi flow restrictions from the Mainland today. Pages and pages before lunch time. Some places 10 mins, some 20, some 30 with only 1 level avbl! Not accepting ANY level to some airport. I heard they are thinking of doing RVSM in the mainland later this year to get more levels. WHY BOTHER!!! Why do our boss want to increase movements at CLK when there is no where to go???!!!

[LapSap]

Back to the original thread:

http://www.hongkongairport.com/eng/pr/pr_881.html

New facilities are being built to meet future demand. Airport Authority Airport Management Director Mr Howard Eng said, "A new lead-in taxiway, J1A, has been built to provide greater flexibility for air traffic controllers in sequencing departing aircraft, thus boosting the on-time performance of departure flights at HKIA. The new taxiway is part of the HK$4.5 billion facilities and capacity enhancement projects that we embarked on in 2006."
Lead-in taxiways are paths for aircraft to get onto the runways for departure. The J1A lead-in taxiway is located on the west side of the South Runway and will commence operation in late March.

Oh dear. Do hope they haven't wasted their money if nobody wants to risk going with 100 metres less TORA.
With bizarre BEKOL and DOTMI restrictions becoming more frequent and accepted as the norm now, it is doubtful that there will be enough aircraft taxying to warrant the dual holding point in any case.
Anyone got a pack of cards?

[throw a dyce]

Will J1A be in intersection departure? (Or just somewhere to park).
With the 2008 Olympics coming Bekol and Dotmi could become a really big CANNOT.The Mainland will have to switch on the metal thing that spins round,invented in WW2.

[Bedder believeit]

oicur12 & gyro. Sorry to make hollow promises at the start of this thread to come back to you oic. Unfortunately I get so embarrassed at times with some of the stuff that I see, that I was hoping to ignore oic's question and that it would just go away. I really feel that only a concerted effort on the combined part of management of the affected airlines might, and I stress might have some effect. I doubt it though. The coastal route to Shanghai in particular tends to be very tricky with increasing overflights through there, and whenever tensions increase with the "non-aligned province", then things can unexpectedly tighten up. It is annoying not only for you, but for us to have time criteria changed so much when aircraft are already starting, pushing or taxying. Just the other day I had an A321 taxying out for the DOTMI route and 40 odd minutes was added to the airborne time as it was mid way down J to 07R holding point.
gyro, my recently checked out student flew with you to ZSAM, so thank you for looking after her. She came back full of beans after her flight with you. You aren't married by any chance are you?

[gyro]

Just smoothing the path, Bedder! I should now get "keep high speed; track shortening avail; 40 trk miles from siera; and no delays thru dotmi for you" Arhhh, what a world exists in my imagination!!

Suzi, you mean to say you get a list of expected delays/slots anticipated for the day?