Crew Health
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Crew Health
Dear (future) colleague's
Could anyone shed some light on cx crew health (ultra long-haul flights)!? Are there any fatigue related problems, do you think you guys get enough rest?
There's a lot of good info on interviews ans salaries bot not so much concerning this subject...
Thanx
Thetan(first time poster, long time reader)
Could anyone shed some light on cx crew health (ultra long-haul flights)!? Are there any fatigue related problems, do you think you guys get enough rest?
There's a lot of good info on interviews ans salaries bot not so much concerning this subject...
Thanx
Thetan(first time poster, long time reader)
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Of course there are some issues. Working on the back of the clock is tough in any job. Some patterns are worse than others. Some of the shorter patterns are far worse than say HKG-NYC (which despite being 16+ hrs is actually quite comfortable).
CX are lucky in that we still operate most 11+hr flights with 4 crew. (I think we are the only airline who fly HK-Europe 4 crew....others only use 3).
In a similar vane, 'most' ULH flights have 1 or 2 based crews. In most cases that means we can arrange to sleep or fly at closer to 'normal' times and therefore with less disruption to our bodyclocks.
Similarly many Capts email their crew and let them know what rest periods he is allocating. You can therefore adjust you sleep prior to the flight.
Fatigue management is a personal issue....and by and large its discussed openly prior to the flight and the best efforts are made to ensure everyone gets the best rest possible.
That said, the 2 guys in the seats at landing must have the 1st choice of rest and the relief crew get the leftovers.
On a 3-man crew the SO will normally get the worst rest and sometimes even no rest (on awful patterns the SO is in the seat for 8hrs straight, while the 2 operating crew rest 4hrs each) Burning the SO out is done on some Middle Eastern routes as the SOs often passenger one-way and the operating crew may do 2 sectors, the SO only being required for the last one.
As an SO, Id volunteer to be burnt out and give the guys max rest. Havent had an SO volunteer to help me yet (gits!
)
Ive been far more fatigued of repetitive regional (2-man) patterns than I have doing ULH.
An example of ULH: (HKG-LHR....flight time 11:45)
All crew in the cockpit for the 1st 30mins
All crew in the cockpit last 30mins.
Time left 10:45 divided by 2....equals 5hrs20min each in the bunk.
Its not bad...so long as your tired enough to sleep that is!
Theres probably no threads on the subject because, although its far from perfect, we have an OK system and if the company had its way....it'd all be far worse (3 man)!
In fairness to the company some patterns were killers. We put in hundreds of reports about them, citing fatigue, and they do in fact get changed for the better. (In that respect we are lucky. Try reading the Emirates threads about fatigue....theyre either too intimated to file reports or nothing gets done anyway. Poor sods)
Hope this helps
CX are lucky in that we still operate most 11+hr flights with 4 crew. (I think we are the only airline who fly HK-Europe 4 crew....others only use 3).
In a similar vane, 'most' ULH flights have 1 or 2 based crews. In most cases that means we can arrange to sleep or fly at closer to 'normal' times and therefore with less disruption to our bodyclocks.
Similarly many Capts email their crew and let them know what rest periods he is allocating. You can therefore adjust you sleep prior to the flight.
Fatigue management is a personal issue....and by and large its discussed openly prior to the flight and the best efforts are made to ensure everyone gets the best rest possible.
That said, the 2 guys in the seats at landing must have the 1st choice of rest and the relief crew get the leftovers.
On a 3-man crew the SO will normally get the worst rest and sometimes even no rest (on awful patterns the SO is in the seat for 8hrs straight, while the 2 operating crew rest 4hrs each) Burning the SO out is done on some Middle Eastern routes as the SOs often passenger one-way and the operating crew may do 2 sectors, the SO only being required for the last one.
As an SO, Id volunteer to be burnt out and give the guys max rest. Havent had an SO volunteer to help me yet (gits!
)Ive been far more fatigued of repetitive regional (2-man) patterns than I have doing ULH.
An example of ULH: (HKG-LHR....flight time 11:45)
All crew in the cockpit for the 1st 30mins
All crew in the cockpit last 30mins.
Time left 10:45 divided by 2....equals 5hrs20min each in the bunk.
Its not bad...so long as your tired enough to sleep that is!
Theres probably no threads on the subject because, although its far from perfect, we have an OK system and if the company had its way....it'd all be far worse (3 man)!
In fairness to the company some patterns were killers. We put in hundreds of reports about them, citing fatigue, and they do in fact get changed for the better. (In that respect we are lucky. Try reading the Emirates threads about fatigue....theyre either too intimated to file reports or nothing gets done anyway. Poor sods)
Hope this helps
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Some more Qs!
Yes petitfromage (u must be French),
Indeed helps a lot thanx for your post, it does seem to be a bigger issue at other airlines (EK), I'm glad to hear that cx has better arrangements for their crews!
You mentioned regional patterns causing you more fatigue, could you give an example of a repetitive regional roster?
Also how many days are off days after a ulh-flight for example hkg-lhr and back?
As a SO you would do some more time in the cockpit (makes sense) but also have more time off, am I correct?
I forgot to ask just reading BusyB's post can cx just fly these ulh routes with 3 crew instead of 4 crew due to the new China-routes?
Th.
Indeed helps a lot thanx for your post, it does seem to be a bigger issue at other airlines (EK), I'm glad to hear that cx has better arrangements for their crews!
You mentioned regional patterns causing you more fatigue, could you give an example of a repetitive regional roster?
Also how many days are off days after a ulh-flight for example hkg-lhr and back?
As a SO you would do some more time in the cockpit (makes sense) but also have more time off, am I correct?
I forgot to ask just reading BusyB's post can cx just fly these ulh routes with 3 crew instead of 4 crew due to the new China-routes?
Th.
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Originally Posted by petitfromage
Of course there are some issues. Working on the back of the clock is tough in any job. Some patterns are worse than others. Some of the shorter patterns are far worse than say HKG-NYC (which despite being 16+ hrs is actually quite comfortable).
CX are lucky in that we still operate most 11+hr flights with 4 crew. (I think we are the only airline who fly HK-Europe 4 crew....others only use 3).
In a similar vane, 'most' ULH flights have 1 or 2 based crews. In most cases that means we can arrange to sleep or fly at closer to 'normal' times and therefore with less disruption to our bodyclocks.
Similarly many Capts email their crew and let them know what rest periods he is allocating. You can therefore adjust you sleep prior to the flight.
Fatigue management is a personal issue....and by and large its discussed openly prior to the flight and the best efforts are made to ensure everyone gets the best rest possible.
That said, the 2 guys in the seats at landing must have the 1st choice of rest and the relief crew get the leftovers.
On a 3-man crew the SO will normally get the worst rest and sometimes even no rest (on awful patterns the SO is in the seat for 8hrs straight, while the 2 operating crew rest 4hrs each) Burning the SO out is done on some Middle Eastern routes as the SOs often passenger one-way and the operating crew may do 2 sectors, the SO only being required for the last one.
As an SO, Id volunteer to be burnt out and give the guys max rest. Havent had an SO volunteer to help me yet (gits! )
Ive been far more fatigued of repetitive regional (2-man) patterns than I have doing ULH.
An example of ULH: (HKG-LHR....flight time 11:45)
All crew in the cockpit for the 1st 30mins
All crew in the cockpit last 30mins.
Time left 10:45 divided by 2....equals 5hrs20min each in the bunk.
Its not bad...so long as your tired enough to sleep that is!
Theres probably no threads on the subject because, although its far from perfect, we have an OK system and if the company had its way....it'd all be far worse (3 man)!
In fairness to the company some patterns were killers. We put in hundreds of reports about them, citing fatigue, and they do in fact get changed for the better. (In that respect we are lucky. Try reading the Emirates threads about fatigue....theyre either too intimated to file reports or nothing gets done anyway. Poor sods)
Hope this helps
CX are lucky in that we still operate most 11+hr flights with 4 crew. (I think we are the only airline who fly HK-Europe 4 crew....others only use 3).
In a similar vane, 'most' ULH flights have 1 or 2 based crews. In most cases that means we can arrange to sleep or fly at closer to 'normal' times and therefore with less disruption to our bodyclocks.
Similarly many Capts email their crew and let them know what rest periods he is allocating. You can therefore adjust you sleep prior to the flight.
Fatigue management is a personal issue....and by and large its discussed openly prior to the flight and the best efforts are made to ensure everyone gets the best rest possible.
That said, the 2 guys in the seats at landing must have the 1st choice of rest and the relief crew get the leftovers.
On a 3-man crew the SO will normally get the worst rest and sometimes even no rest (on awful patterns the SO is in the seat for 8hrs straight, while the 2 operating crew rest 4hrs each) Burning the SO out is done on some Middle Eastern routes as the SOs often passenger one-way and the operating crew may do 2 sectors, the SO only being required for the last one.
As an SO, Id volunteer to be burnt out and give the guys max rest. Havent had an SO volunteer to help me yet (gits!
)Ive been far more fatigued of repetitive regional (2-man) patterns than I have doing ULH.
An example of ULH: (HKG-LHR....flight time 11:45)
All crew in the cockpit for the 1st 30mins
All crew in the cockpit last 30mins.
Time left 10:45 divided by 2....equals 5hrs20min each in the bunk.
Its not bad...so long as your tired enough to sleep that is!
Theres probably no threads on the subject because, although its far from perfect, we have an OK system and if the company had its way....it'd all be far worse (3 man)!
In fairness to the company some patterns were killers. We put in hundreds of reports about them, citing fatigue, and they do in fact get changed for the better. (In that respect we are lucky. Try reading the Emirates threads about fatigue....theyre either too intimated to file reports or nothing gets done anyway. Poor sods)
Hope this helps
TKS FOR YOUR INFORMATION~
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That was all spelled out brilliantly. I guess flying multiple sectors would be more tiring, but what if you can't sleep on the ULH sectors. Surely the bunk is great, but only if you can sleep in it.
