Mass Resignation from KA
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Mass Resignation from KA
Heard the other day from several sources, that due to the great rise in property prices in the last year, that 40 or so pilots from KA are going to take the money and RUN. Fed up with miss-management and aweful rosters, they have had enough...
Bout time!!
Bout time!!
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I don't think the number is 40. Six to eight have interviews with Singapore Airlines and a few more paying lip service. A number of aviators have stormed upstairs threatening resignation, only to look ridiculous to themselves and their colleagues when they quickly rescind.
Last edited by Follow the Follow Me; 30th Jul 2006 at 12:35.
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Money talks. Property in HKG has gone up but even so, the KA gig is still a good deal financially and very difficult to top.
Crap rostering. Crap training – especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees. Low tech flight operations that make some regional carriers look good. Rudderless ship syndrome – where is the management. These are some issues that tempt people to leave and result in rock bottom morale but as long as ransom is being paid, very few will leave.
Now as for customers abandoning KA, that’s a different story.
Crap rostering. Crap training – especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees. Low tech flight operations that make some regional carriers look good. Rudderless ship syndrome – where is the management. These are some issues that tempt people to leave and result in rock bottom morale but as long as ransom is being paid, very few will leave.
Now as for customers abandoning KA, that’s a different story.
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Every KA pilot who has been treated badly has a story to tell. What I find so interesting is that KA management are prepared to lose pilots when flying in China has quite a large requirement for local knowledge. To be prepared to lose pilots who have some considerable experience in flying in China is short sighted and irresponsible.
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"especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees".
An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for. In very large enterprises this is a small problem as they have both time and resources to work their whey through this situation and "deferred success" can still be addressed within the same budget.
In smaller organisations , where you have both time and budget constraints, you have less time to manoeuvre and so set standards that you hope will ensure that those selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'.
Command Training then starts after the individual has shown themselves ready for Command. Command ability cannot be taught in any kind of worthwhile command course, you cannot be taught to 'Command', you can be taught how you can best direct your innate command ability.
An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for. In very large enterprises this is a small problem as they have both time and resources to work their whey through this situation and "deferred success" can still be addressed within the same budget.
In smaller organisations , where you have both time and budget constraints, you have less time to manoeuvre and so set standards that you hope will ensure that those selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'.
Command Training then starts after the individual has shown themselves ready for Command. Command ability cannot be taught in any kind of worthwhile command course, you cannot be taught to 'Command', you can be taught how you can best direct your innate command ability.
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Slightly off topic, BUT...
I see in todays SCMP, Stanley Hui (CEO) is coming up with more reasons for Dragonair's poor performance.
Admittedly Dragon has had a tough Summer, with ATC delays in PVG, rotten Wx and high fuel prices to name a few, but why will he not accept that he is runnng a company that has the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the huge potential in F E Asia, and yet we are wet leasing aircraft to other companies because we have surplus planes and crews!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are we not using these to develop our own routes... As I've said before, where is the initiative and leadership.
Fx
I see in todays SCMP, Stanley Hui (CEO) is coming up with more reasons for Dragonair's poor performance.
Admittedly Dragon has had a tough Summer, with ATC delays in PVG, rotten Wx and high fuel prices to name a few, but why will he not accept that he is runnng a company that has the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the huge potential in F E Asia, and yet we are wet leasing aircraft to other companies because we have surplus planes and crews!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are we not using these to develop our own routes... As I've said before, where is the initiative and leadership.
Fx
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Blue Eagle – you said “An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for”
In KA’s case, PCE (pre command evaluation) and PCW (pre command workshop) has already taken care of assessing a candidates command ability prior to undertaking command training.
You also said “selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'”
In KA, there is no second hit. A single bad day in the sim at the end of an expensive and time consuming command course will result in being sin binned for 12 months. No second chances.
Despite the fact that KA employs generally very experienced pilots they still have an appalling failure rate that should embarrass the checking and training staff no end. But they appear to view such a failure rate as a success – the more that fail the better the system is.
In KA’s case, PCE (pre command evaluation) and PCW (pre command workshop) has already taken care of assessing a candidates command ability prior to undertaking command training.
You also said “selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'”
In KA, there is no second hit. A single bad day in the sim at the end of an expensive and time consuming command course will result in being sin binned for 12 months. No second chances.
Despite the fact that KA employs generally very experienced pilots they still have an appalling failure rate that should embarrass the checking and training staff no end. But they appear to view such a failure rate as a success – the more that fail the better the system is.
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You would think a company like KA would have enough of an idea how you would fare as a captain, just by looking at your training and recurrent history.
KA isn't the only airline in Hong Kong that likes to train their prospective captains this way... But it's getting better.
KA isn't the only airline in Hong Kong that likes to train their prospective captains this way... But it's getting better.
Just a small point Fx Boa, Ka may have the equipment but they don't have the human infrastructure required to take advantage of the regional potential. While accountants run around working out how to save $20 here & there, no one looks at market opportunities. Replacing the accountants with experienced marketing/ buisness professionals would be a step in the right direction. The daily stuff ups from the Ioc are comical. Its a little frightening if our Ceo really believes its simply Wx & Atc upsetting the bottom line. Having both flight & cabin crew actively working against the airline & ops staff with no training (but very impressive computer screens) surely contributes.
Unfortunately CA flying is just an easy way out as the work came to Ka, 2 year wet leases suggest there is no master plan.
Unfortunately CA flying is just an easy way out as the work came to Ka, 2 year wet leases suggest there is no master plan.
Last edited by Karunch; 28th Sep 2005 at 12:10.
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KA is a stepping stone, but unfortunately does not offer a sustainable lifestyle for families. Higher level management arrogance and insensitivity doesn't help either.
Good luck to those who aren't financially conscripted and can leave.
Blue Eagle, I am saddened to hear you believe that Command cannot be taught.
Good luck to those who aren't financially conscripted and can leave.
Blue Eagle, I am saddened to hear you believe that Command cannot be taught.
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The problems listed here are valid and accurate.
Housing is expensive, with allowances not keeping pace, an adversarial attitude in Mgmt and training, no "coaching" or support for the Command Candidate - one strike and you're out is the rule. An unwillingness to embrace the knowledge that is built up in the senior Pilot group and use it to the company's advantage. The "rule through fear and intimidation" is more in keeping with a 1970's era British Coal mine than an Airline operating in one of the more trying environments and airspace...
In short the lack of "People Skills" - a command trait I'm sure Blue Eagle will recognize - is sadly lacking in all area's of Mgmt.
In my time at KA I witnessed this and found Mgmt wanting in every respect...
Housing is expensive, with allowances not keeping pace, an adversarial attitude in Mgmt and training, no "coaching" or support for the Command Candidate - one strike and you're out is the rule. An unwillingness to embrace the knowledge that is built up in the senior Pilot group and use it to the company's advantage. The "rule through fear and intimidation" is more in keeping with a 1970's era British Coal mine than an Airline operating in one of the more trying environments and airspace...
In short the lack of "People Skills" - a command trait I'm sure Blue Eagle will recognize - is sadly lacking in all area's of Mgmt.
In my time at KA I witnessed this and found Mgmt wanting in every respect...
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Singletrackbullit
Who do you think you are trying to start a mud slinging match about my company, it's management and our rosters!!
I would bet that you don't know anything about all of the above.
You're either a private pilot OR Dragonair knocked you back!!
I would bet that you don't know anything about all of the above.
You're either a private pilot OR Dragonair knocked you back!!
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Well said FO, he registered just to start this thread and has been given quite enough bandwidth. Somethings need sorting out but the money rolls in OK; I just does me job and goes home.
It is true that KA seems to be seriously lacking direction from management at the moment. At a time when all other airlines in the region are expanding, the company seems to be struggling to come up fresh ideas beyond increasing the frequency to Beijing and Shanghai. Communication from above is nonexistent and the perception amongst staff is that the company is a rudderless ship. Local staff are overworked, overstressed and are bailing out in droves.
However, having said that, you have to realise that many of the posters here have their own axes to grind and are less than objective. For example, perhaps some of the negative posters above can tell us whether they have ever attempted a command course at KA, and how it went…
However, having said that, you have to realise that many of the posters here have their own axes to grind and are less than objective. For example, perhaps some of the negative posters above can tell us whether they have ever attempted a command course at KA, and how it went…
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Hi,
Just registered to give my 2 cents.
Morale is at an all time low. not only in flt ops, but the whole company. The catch phrase" if you do not like it you can go" can be heard on every level in KA house.
See KAFO reply, the biggest problem is rostering/scheduling and mgmt inability to correct the situation.
even when managers want to discuss this problem they get nowhere!!
KA
Just registered to give my 2 cents.
Morale is at an all time low. not only in flt ops, but the whole company. The catch phrase" if you do not like it you can go" can be heard on every level in KA house.
See KAFO reply, the biggest problem is rostering/scheduling and mgmt inability to correct the situation.
even when managers want to discuss this problem they get nowhere!!
KA
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One of the biggest sources of frustration for KA pilots is the crap rostering. And a solution to this has been created by the hard work of the DPA. Those involved in the trial have all said that it's a big improvement. Sadly this does not have support from some senior pilots who feel that they should have better rosters than the rest because they have been at KA longer! If we can get this implemented then our lifestyles will improve dramatically and therefore sickleave will be greatly reduced. For some reason management do not want us to have a more efficient roster even though it would cost the company nothing and give more flexibility with the schedule! This beligerent attitude has had a devistating effect on morale.
One of the attributes of good leadership is to be able to listen to the troops complaints and take action if required. Sadly we don't have good leadership.
I believe that most line pilots are seriously fatigued & have to take sick days in order to recover. Flying into China is by no means a straight forward proposition & the company should be proud of the job that the pilots are doing. Instead our COS are continually attacked and we are ruled with fear & intimidation.
I think management would be very surprised at how many pilots are seriously starting to look elsewhere.
One of the attributes of good leadership is to be able to listen to the troops complaints and take action if required. Sadly we don't have good leadership.
I believe that most line pilots are seriously fatigued & have to take sick days in order to recover. Flying into China is by no means a straight forward proposition & the company should be proud of the job that the pilots are doing. Instead our COS are continually attacked and we are ruled with fear & intimidation.
I think management would be very surprised at how many pilots are seriously starting to look elsewhere.
Last edited by A4G; 2nd Oct 2005 at 01:43.
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KA is a rudderless barge. I have seen the work being done to try and fix things. The KA response is: "it ain't broke!" you can all summise and hypothesize that everything is OK but it is NOT. Management (apart from the tont meister) are ineffective and are not worthy of respect
Last edited by gliderboy; 2nd Oct 2005 at 05:19.
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Midnight oil – in response to your question – I have not been through the KA command course – my anger towards command training is based on discussion with close friends who have done the course, some passed, a few failed. It is also based on my experience from doing sim training and proficiency checks and gaining an understanding of how the “KA” minds works. It worries me.
KAFO – You accuse a poster of slinging mud in reference to comments regarding our rostering. Last month I was rostered for two 3 day trips back to back giving me under 10 hours stick time over 6 days – a little more than 1.5 hours per day. This is not mud being flung, these are facts.
KA is being managed on a daily basis only as ownership and direction issues are being nutted out behind closed doors, or to put it more bluntly, in a manner that “is none of your business”, as told to our boss recently by a board member.
KAFO – You accuse a poster of slinging mud in reference to comments regarding our rostering. Last month I was rostered for two 3 day trips back to back giving me under 10 hours stick time over 6 days – a little more than 1.5 hours per day. This is not mud being flung, these are facts.
KA is being managed on a daily basis only as ownership and direction issues are being nutted out behind closed doors, or to put it more bluntly, in a manner that “is none of your business”, as told to our boss recently by a board member.