The 49ers and Related Issues(Merged)
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Ask yourself why the AOA Prez wants the quitters in? What are the demographics i.e. rank, AGE? What is the company needing?
Look at the demographics of the AOA. The S/O’s, JF/O’s, F/O’s, SF/O’s surely out number the Captains. He needs all the quitter captains to get age 60 passed (no F/O or below in their right mind would sign for 5 years increase in retirement age). If he doesn’t get the numbers, he and NR will offer an increase in pay for the grades below Captain to get the right seaters to sign.
It will be just enough to for people to think of themselves and not as a whole and well............enough said.
The only way for F/O’s to protect themselves is not to let the quitters in at a reduced re-joining fee. If they want age 60, make them rejoin and pay for it.
After this 49er deal, don’t think there will be too many new hires wanting to join the AOA. May as well save themselves 1.5%.
Look at the demographics of the AOA. The S/O’s, JF/O’s, F/O’s, SF/O’s surely out number the Captains. He needs all the quitter captains to get age 60 passed (no F/O or below in their right mind would sign for 5 years increase in retirement age). If he doesn’t get the numbers, he and NR will offer an increase in pay for the grades below Captain to get the right seaters to sign.
It will be just enough to for people to think of themselves and not as a whole and well............enough said.
The only way for F/O’s to protect themselves is not to let the quitters in at a reduced re-joining fee. If they want age 60, make them rejoin and pay for it.
After this 49er deal, don’t think there will be too many new hires wanting to join the AOA. May as well save themselves 1.5%.
I think the real reason why recently employed pilots wouldn't join the union was because of the treatment handed out to them before, during and after joining CX, rather than because of the recent vote.
Quite a lot of middle ranking people (B scale FOs) I have spoken to, realize the need, for them, to work to 60. It will have to come in one day and maybe whilst your expansion is constrained by numbers of crew, is a good time for it to happen.
Quite a lot of middle ranking people (B scale FOs) I have spoken to, realize the need, for them, to work to 60. It will have to come in one day and maybe whilst your expansion is constrained by numbers of crew, is a good time for it to happen.
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Turn it up...
Quite a lot of middle ranking people (B scale FOs) I have spoken to, realize the need, for them, to work to 60
Don't confuse someone nodding in deference in an effort to shut you up with someone actually agreeing with you.
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bonajet, as a B scale f/o, who spends 1/2 of my time in the seat with other B scale f/o's, and mostly speaks socially with B scale f/o's when mixing with aircrew, I can tell you that I have not heard one single B scale f/o say that they need to work to 60. I will leave you to interpret what you wish from that.
In addition, if I was to "slag" you off I would say something like..
That contravenes the rules of this forum and gets me banned !!!
however I chose not to, instead suggesting that any B scale f/o that agreed with your statement was perhaps doing so in deference.
jtr- still playing the ball, but we might need the video ump just to be sure.
In addition, if I was to "slag" you off I would say something like..
That contravenes the rules of this forum and gets me banned !!!
however I chose not to, instead suggesting that any B scale f/o that agreed with your statement was perhaps doing so in deference.
jtr- still playing the ball, but we might need the video ump just to be sure.
Last edited by jtr; 20th May 2005 at 15:25.
Turbo
I disagree.
You may be surprised to find how small the number of relics who want to go on to 60 really is.
Noise and numbers rarely have a sensible correlation.The 60 argument is a red herring for the majority of senior guys who left the AOA.
I did not leave the AOA in a fit of pique but only after realising it was like trying to teach a pig to sing...a complete waste of my time and it was only antagonising the pig.
Lets face it anyone who is silly enough to have no money at 55 after 20+ years can always do 5 years with Korean, Asiana, Mandarin etc if they have to, as well as stay living in HK.
I tend to agree that the young bucks will all probably have to go to 60, and why shouldn't they. The average 55 year old in another ten years will be a biological match for a 45 year old of my vintage...apart from a few die hard F/O's!
The trick is for the AOA to re-invent itself and show it has the ear of those who listen. It's not about the money.
I disagree.
You may be surprised to find how small the number of relics who want to go on to 60 really is.
Noise and numbers rarely have a sensible correlation.The 60 argument is a red herring for the majority of senior guys who left the AOA.
I did not leave the AOA in a fit of pique but only after realising it was like trying to teach a pig to sing...a complete waste of my time and it was only antagonising the pig.
Lets face it anyone who is silly enough to have no money at 55 after 20+ years can always do 5 years with Korean, Asiana, Mandarin etc if they have to, as well as stay living in HK.
I tend to agree that the young bucks will all probably have to go to 60, and why shouldn't they. The average 55 year old in another ten years will be a biological match for a 45 year old of my vintage...apart from a few die hard F/O's!
The trick is for the AOA to re-invent itself and show it has the ear of those who listen. It's not about the money.
Last edited by VR-HFX; 21st May 2005 at 02:09.
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49 ers the real skinny.
This is a most delicate post, if I offend please chalk it up to ignorance. I really want to know the real deal on the 49ers. I am interested to know the current working CX pilot, as well as someone in the know's position on the topic. Also, what is the company stance on this.
Please help as I only want to be as informed as I can be and can't find a lot of information on the topic. Thanks for the help.
Please help as I only want to be as informed as I can be and can't find a lot of information on the topic. Thanks for the help.
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HKAOA and the"49ers"
Of the 52"49ers"a total of 32 have accepted the Company offer - broken down into 21 who have applied for re-employment and 11 who have opted for a straight cash payment of 10 month's salary.
This leaves 20 individuals who have not responded to the offer. Of these 20, 10 are plaintiffs in the HKG court case, 4 have a claim with the UK Labour Tribunal, 5 were plaintiffs in the USA case and one is deceased.
Interviews for the 21 applicants will take place in the week commencing June 20th.
New Basings Policy
Discussions are now taking place with the AOA to finalize improvements to the administration and allocation of Bases.
We plan to hold discussions on the prospect of flying with CX beyond the age of 55 very shortly.
This leaves 20 individuals who have not responded to the offer. Of these 20, 10 are plaintiffs in the HKG court case, 4 have a claim with the UK Labour Tribunal, 5 were plaintiffs in the USA case and one is deceased.
Interviews for the 21 applicants will take place in the week commencing June 20th.
New Basings Policy
Discussions are now taking place with the AOA to finalize improvements to the administration and allocation of Bases.
We plan to hold discussions on the prospect of flying with CX beyond the age of 55 very shortly.
Last edited by Turbo Beaver; 25th May 2005 at 01:46.
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I think the answer to your question can be argued with varied results.
If age 60 is implemented and a slow expansion occurs then maybe it will delay your upgrade potential.
If age 55 is maintained and the airline could have expanded had they had the trainers etc. then maybe not having age 60 will delay your upgrade potential.
If age 60 is implemented and a quick expansion occurs as a result then maybe it will speed up your upgrade potential.
If age 55 is maintained and the airline does not expand then the status quo is maintained.
Don't get too wrapped up about the implications of age 60 to your command. Its industry standard and a nice thing to have in your back pocket as you hit your early 50's. Also, it's a bit of a trump card at the moment that has a shelf life. The value of it to the AOA is decreasing steadily.
IMHO
If age 60 is implemented and a slow expansion occurs then maybe it will delay your upgrade potential.
If age 55 is maintained and the airline could have expanded had they had the trainers etc. then maybe not having age 60 will delay your upgrade potential.
If age 60 is implemented and a quick expansion occurs as a result then maybe it will speed up your upgrade potential.
If age 55 is maintained and the airline does not expand then the status quo is maintained.
Don't get too wrapped up about the implications of age 60 to your command. Its industry standard and a nice thing to have in your back pocket as you hit your early 50's. Also, it's a bit of a trump card at the moment that has a shelf life. The value of it to the AOA is decreasing steadily.
IMHO
When I joined, I was told it would be 7-10 years to command. It turned out to be 5 years.
Today it is roughly 10. Tomorrow it could be 6,7,8,9.
I think the reality is that noone knows and I do not think increasing the retirement age to 60 will make any difference.
As I have said earlier, most of the A scale guys that are left will not be interested in staying after 55...my straw poll. Maybe a few want to stay to help in C&T for their own personal or marital reasons, but they would not get in the way of upgrades.
My guess is the easiest way to keep the addicts on until they are 60 is the freighter fleet and then try to integrate the freighter guys across to pax. The company would not be averse to this.
Reality is most should have a command by 40.
Today it is roughly 10. Tomorrow it could be 6,7,8,9.
I think the reality is that noone knows and I do not think increasing the retirement age to 60 will make any difference.
As I have said earlier, most of the A scale guys that are left will not be interested in staying after 55...my straw poll. Maybe a few want to stay to help in C&T for their own personal or marital reasons, but they would not get in the way of upgrades.
My guess is the easiest way to keep the addicts on until they are 60 is the freighter fleet and then try to integrate the freighter guys across to pax. The company would not be averse to this.
Reality is most should have a command by 40.
Last edited by VR-HFX; 26th May 2005 at 15:10.
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It started in ‘93-’94 when CX introduced B Scales and started a continued erosion of Conditions of Service. The A Scale Pilots were threatened with a contract (sign or you will never get a pay raise or a basing). Very well maneuvered by CX and most signed the new deal without much of a fight. Most assumed B Scales did not affect them and they were not concerned. Approximately 50-60 stood firm and did not sign the new deal. This batch ended up getting the best roster, basings and a low threshold flying hours before overtime. That day, the Champagne corks were flying at Swire House. I am all right Jack syndrome began.
In ‘96 they started ASL to fly the freighters. The Freighters were even lower pay and conditions. By the time 2000 rolled around they realized it was not working (it provided no flexibility and low productivity). The ASL pilots were allowed a one-time offer to join the CX seniority list, which most did, but the old farts stayed with ASL because of age 60. Subsequently some have quit the AOA after joining the CX list. All 744 pilots now volunteer to fly the freighter aircraft because CX needs the flexibility. Also if you don’t you will be labeled a bad apple.
In 1999, CX threaten, again, all A Scale pilots with “sign a new contract or be fired”. The AOA conceived this as a threat and urged all A Scale pilots not to fly if they were stressed. All of the Captains at that time were A Scale. Most Captains kept flying. It was presented again as a threat to all pilots’ contract and everybody was asked not to fly stressed. The F/O’s got involved, as some Captains,and did not fly stressed. It went on for 2 weeks and at the height, there were 75 flights cancelled out of 129. IMHO, in hindsight, the biggest mistake was the F/O’s joining their fight. See later. Captains continued to fly (there were only a few A Scale F/O’s at that time, some flew, some didn’t). In the end the A Scales signed the new agreement (as in ‘94). The Based Pilots took the biggest hit (27% pay decrease) but the HK A Scalers got their PFund topped up (which was very good IMHO). Most Based Pilots returned to HK, which cost CX a huge amount (CX didn’t expect the Pilots to return to HK). Discussions on basing policy are up and coming and the option to return will be gone or extended. IMHO if you are not allowed to return to HK, they will cut pay on basing even deeper.
In 2000-2001 the AOA wanted a revised rostering agreement, negotiated pay, and benefits. Nothing was negotiated for the past 10 years. There were talks and nothing materialized (some will say there was an offer). There was no formal offer by CX to the AOA. Talks broke down. During that time it was work to rule.
The then AOA stated they may take industrial action. After the ‘99 dispute this worried the company. The now DFO implied 4 months before the talks broke down “if you will take industrial action, we will fire 20-30 Pilots and the rest will fall in line”. The AOA was a bit worried about this and figured it should not go stressed this time. CX asked the AOA what kind of action they were going to take and of course the AOA said “No Comment”. CX wanted to know badly what the Pilots were going to do. If it were another ‘99, CX will have to obtain aircraft for the flying. The last week of June (2001) CX had to make a decision on getting 10-11 aircraft. In the end they hired those aircraft secretly from Air China.
On June 30, the AOA announced that it would take limited industrial action by the way of working to rule. Basically status quo.
This really embarrassed Cathay Pacific. The Pilots did not go sick and CX had 10-11 aircraft from Air China that had to be paid for.
This was a huge embarrassment for the CX CEO, as a Pilot hoodwinked him. This made him furious. What shall we do, was the question. This is the same CEO that fired a pilot for throwing peanuts in the air at the company bar. Some landed by the CEO’s foot.
They paid for10-11 aircraft from Air China so they used them to fly some routes and had huge ads in the SCMP how all the pilots are calling in sick. We were actually put on reserve/standby for 2-3 weeks until the Air China aircraft returned. It was a colossal loss of face.
The DFO and the deputy DFO (now DFO) arranged a Star Chamber meeting of all the managers. We need to fire about 50 pilots. The managers were asked if they ever had exchange with pilots that they didn’t like or who they considered a bad apple (a bad apple is open for interpretation, speaking up put you in that category). One was stood down by Crew Control and then put down as a missed duty, another confronted Crew Control about Flight Time Limitations, and both are 49ers. CX had about 150 on the list but could not terminate that many without affecting the schedule, so the lucky 49ers were created. This happened July 9th, 2001. They did not get a chance to defend themselves. They were fired by phone, fax, and Express courier (DHL).
The AOA developed a Maximum Safety Strategy. It was a work to rule. Not all pilots did this and the ones that did, were called into the office to explain themselves. Some Captains wrote up F/O’s for trying to slow things down (not good for Command prospects) One Captain was demoted. CX had for 5-10 extra people to dispatch the aircraft. Ground staff were in the cockpit watching the pre-flight, others went with the pilot on walk arounds. The ground staff started to blame all delays on the flight crew as they could get away with it. Some pilots saved themselves from demotion by taking good notes and presented them to the interrogator when called in. Only then it was realized that some ports were really out to screw the pilots and were outright lying.
Then 911 happened and we have been trying to fight this in the courts for the last 4 years. Our dues went up to 5% at one point and have been at 3% over the last couple of years. When the dues went up, most of the pilots contract that was threatened in ‘99 subsequently quit the AOA and numbers have dropped by 400. Thank you for helping. New joiners are reluctant to join because of high dues and don’t want to get fired.
The AOA put on a recruitment ban (which was endorsed by IFALPA) and there are a number of people who have broken the ban. It was subsequently lifted.
The current AOA/Membership have decided to stop funding the court cases, which forced some to accept an interview or 10 months. The AOA Committee had to take two votes to unleash the 49ers. The first didn't make it by a few votes (need 66% to carry the motion). The motion was reworded and a second vote cast. Bring in the axe.
The court cases were to conclude early next year and to this point the 49ers had all judgments/costs awarded in their favor. The AOA Committee bulldozed this motion through for some reason. The committee painted a doomsday scenario and promoted it as the likely case. This doomsday scenario had to be cited but it is unlikely.
The returning 49ers will have to go through 3 interviews with the company (independent shrink present accompanied by the company doctor) and the DFO will decide who will come back (there is a panel but no one, who is career oriented, will speak up against the DFO). The panel may consist of managers who were involved in the Star Chamber meetings. The AOA president has hinted and called some 49ers to say they will not have a problem with the interview and discouraged some wanting to return to Hong Kong.
This offer is for an interview only.
Some are trying to start another union (the CPU-Cathay Pilots Union, Cathay meaning China) and acquire enough members to fund the legals for the 49ers that did not accept the offer. I believe people are reluctant to join the CPU as they will be considered bad apples (see above), but I am sure that some will contribute a percentage of their salary to keep the legals going.
As for the company’s position, it was a pain, both industrially and monetary, I don’t think CX cares if anyone is happy (opinion) as long as the job gets done. They don’t like it, that is why they want this to go away and the committee/members gave it away (again opinion). They always inquire about the 49ers at fleet forums (pilot-manager meeting). Again, if you speak up.
The company asks all pilots to move forward, but pilots are still Cat B’d (not yet suitable for command) because of political grounds of the events of the last 7-10 years. Obviously a one-way street.
IMHO they will continue to erode the contract because they can.
Looking forward to it VR.
In ‘96 they started ASL to fly the freighters. The Freighters were even lower pay and conditions. By the time 2000 rolled around they realized it was not working (it provided no flexibility and low productivity). The ASL pilots were allowed a one-time offer to join the CX seniority list, which most did, but the old farts stayed with ASL because of age 60. Subsequently some have quit the AOA after joining the CX list. All 744 pilots now volunteer to fly the freighter aircraft because CX needs the flexibility. Also if you don’t you will be labeled a bad apple.
In 1999, CX threaten, again, all A Scale pilots with “sign a new contract or be fired”. The AOA conceived this as a threat and urged all A Scale pilots not to fly if they were stressed. All of the Captains at that time were A Scale. Most Captains kept flying. It was presented again as a threat to all pilots’ contract and everybody was asked not to fly stressed. The F/O’s got involved, as some Captains,and did not fly stressed. It went on for 2 weeks and at the height, there were 75 flights cancelled out of 129. IMHO, in hindsight, the biggest mistake was the F/O’s joining their fight. See later. Captains continued to fly (there were only a few A Scale F/O’s at that time, some flew, some didn’t). In the end the A Scales signed the new agreement (as in ‘94). The Based Pilots took the biggest hit (27% pay decrease) but the HK A Scalers got their PFund topped up (which was very good IMHO). Most Based Pilots returned to HK, which cost CX a huge amount (CX didn’t expect the Pilots to return to HK). Discussions on basing policy are up and coming and the option to return will be gone or extended. IMHO if you are not allowed to return to HK, they will cut pay on basing even deeper.
In 2000-2001 the AOA wanted a revised rostering agreement, negotiated pay, and benefits. Nothing was negotiated for the past 10 years. There were talks and nothing materialized (some will say there was an offer). There was no formal offer by CX to the AOA. Talks broke down. During that time it was work to rule.
The then AOA stated they may take industrial action. After the ‘99 dispute this worried the company. The now DFO implied 4 months before the talks broke down “if you will take industrial action, we will fire 20-30 Pilots and the rest will fall in line”. The AOA was a bit worried about this and figured it should not go stressed this time. CX asked the AOA what kind of action they were going to take and of course the AOA said “No Comment”. CX wanted to know badly what the Pilots were going to do. If it were another ‘99, CX will have to obtain aircraft for the flying. The last week of June (2001) CX had to make a decision on getting 10-11 aircraft. In the end they hired those aircraft secretly from Air China.
On June 30, the AOA announced that it would take limited industrial action by the way of working to rule. Basically status quo.
This really embarrassed Cathay Pacific. The Pilots did not go sick and CX had 10-11 aircraft from Air China that had to be paid for.
This was a huge embarrassment for the CX CEO, as a Pilot hoodwinked him. This made him furious. What shall we do, was the question. This is the same CEO that fired a pilot for throwing peanuts in the air at the company bar. Some landed by the CEO’s foot.
They paid for10-11 aircraft from Air China so they used them to fly some routes and had huge ads in the SCMP how all the pilots are calling in sick. We were actually put on reserve/standby for 2-3 weeks until the Air China aircraft returned. It was a colossal loss of face.
The DFO and the deputy DFO (now DFO) arranged a Star Chamber meeting of all the managers. We need to fire about 50 pilots. The managers were asked if they ever had exchange with pilots that they didn’t like or who they considered a bad apple (a bad apple is open for interpretation, speaking up put you in that category). One was stood down by Crew Control and then put down as a missed duty, another confronted Crew Control about Flight Time Limitations, and both are 49ers. CX had about 150 on the list but could not terminate that many without affecting the schedule, so the lucky 49ers were created. This happened July 9th, 2001. They did not get a chance to defend themselves. They were fired by phone, fax, and Express courier (DHL).
The AOA developed a Maximum Safety Strategy. It was a work to rule. Not all pilots did this and the ones that did, were called into the office to explain themselves. Some Captains wrote up F/O’s for trying to slow things down (not good for Command prospects) One Captain was demoted. CX had for 5-10 extra people to dispatch the aircraft. Ground staff were in the cockpit watching the pre-flight, others went with the pilot on walk arounds. The ground staff started to blame all delays on the flight crew as they could get away with it. Some pilots saved themselves from demotion by taking good notes and presented them to the interrogator when called in. Only then it was realized that some ports were really out to screw the pilots and were outright lying.
Then 911 happened and we have been trying to fight this in the courts for the last 4 years. Our dues went up to 5% at one point and have been at 3% over the last couple of years. When the dues went up, most of the pilots contract that was threatened in ‘99 subsequently quit the AOA and numbers have dropped by 400. Thank you for helping. New joiners are reluctant to join because of high dues and don’t want to get fired.
The AOA put on a recruitment ban (which was endorsed by IFALPA) and there are a number of people who have broken the ban. It was subsequently lifted.
The current AOA/Membership have decided to stop funding the court cases, which forced some to accept an interview or 10 months. The AOA Committee had to take two votes to unleash the 49ers. The first didn't make it by a few votes (need 66% to carry the motion). The motion was reworded and a second vote cast. Bring in the axe.
The court cases were to conclude early next year and to this point the 49ers had all judgments/costs awarded in their favor. The AOA Committee bulldozed this motion through for some reason. The committee painted a doomsday scenario and promoted it as the likely case. This doomsday scenario had to be cited but it is unlikely.
The returning 49ers will have to go through 3 interviews with the company (independent shrink present accompanied by the company doctor) and the DFO will decide who will come back (there is a panel but no one, who is career oriented, will speak up against the DFO). The panel may consist of managers who were involved in the Star Chamber meetings. The AOA president has hinted and called some 49ers to say they will not have a problem with the interview and discouraged some wanting to return to Hong Kong.
This offer is for an interview only.
Some are trying to start another union (the CPU-Cathay Pilots Union, Cathay meaning China) and acquire enough members to fund the legals for the 49ers that did not accept the offer. I believe people are reluctant to join the CPU as they will be considered bad apples (see above), but I am sure that some will contribute a percentage of their salary to keep the legals going.
As for the company’s position, it was a pain, both industrially and monetary, I don’t think CX cares if anyone is happy (opinion) as long as the job gets done. They don’t like it, that is why they want this to go away and the committee/members gave it away (again opinion). They always inquire about the 49ers at fleet forums (pilot-manager meeting). Again, if you speak up.
The company asks all pilots to move forward, but pilots are still Cat B’d (not yet suitable for command) because of political grounds of the events of the last 7-10 years. Obviously a one-way street.
IMHO they will continue to erode the contract because they can.
Looking forward to it VR.
Last edited by Turbo Beaver; 26th May 2005 at 15:14.
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dear, oh dear, oh dear,.............
........why didn't the AOA realise only the company can ban recruitment? i guess because IFALPA never told them................................pathetic..............an d while we are at it...........when are my mates (who didn't join during this so called recruitment ban) going to get jobs ? ..............as promised by the HKAOA.
Oh sorry...... forgot the company does the recruiting NOT THE AOA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The AOA put on a recruitment ban (which was endorsed by IFALPA) and there are a number of people who have broken the ban.
Oh sorry...... forgot the company does the recruiting NOT THE AOA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
