richie-rich

hey guys
heres the scenario:
a friend of mine (older than me by couple of years) wants to take up flying as his career. He was askin me the other day of what are his chances of passing a class 1 when it comes to a medical. I couldnt give him ananswer then since I never had to worry about this by myself and dont know any pilot who has similar problem like my friend. What should my answer be to him?

Just to let you know, he was on weed for a while, but now wants to reform himself and do something constructive. Does he stand a chance?

I would appreciate your feedback on this. I really want to help him out in this.
Thanx

Richie Rich

Spartacan

-he was on weed for a while-

Sorry, but I wouldn't want a pilot like that in my cockpit. Whatever the medical issues are here he had an attitude that it was OK to do drugs which is totoally incompatible with an occupation where you are responsible for thousands of peoples lives.

I wouldn't be convinced that he would ever be completely cured even if he had been off the 'weed' for years. He might just do it again and then go flying a few days later . . .

Try something else please.

christep

Spartacan,

So how do you apply your reasoning to alcohol then?

Hilico

I thought the entire point was that he wouldn't mix "weed" and flying. Whatever this weed is doesn't sound as though it's in the same league as crack, heroin or LSD.

Snoop

Spartacan,

With the availability and the usage in today's society you must be naive to think that you have not already shared a cockpit with somebody that has smoked a bit of ganja at some point in their lives.

One of the driving programs on UK TV got somebody stoned and then stuck them on a driving course. He seemed to be safe, alot safer than the guy who drove pissed anyway.

It doesn't matter in my mind what you do. Just don't do before going anywhere near a flight deck.

If you are pissed, stoned, high on something else, dosed upto the eyeballs on over the counter or prescription drugs, fatigued, not feeling well or going through alot of personal stress - I would rather not fly with you either.

Drugs are drugs, added to which we can push ourselves so hard that we end up degraded our own performance to such a degree that we are not fit to fly for example fatigue, flying whilst ill etc

Spartacan - wake up and smell the coffee (but be careful it is a drug) There are way more worrying characters flying today than those that may have had a good time when they were at university and are now trying to build a career as a responsible, professional pilot.


riche-rich As for your mate. I don't think you get tested at medical. You could be tested at a company level. It comes down to the fact that nobody has done any proper research on the effects of weed - especially on flying ability. An airliner with 200 people in it is no place to be a guinea pig. If he wants to fly, knock it on the head. Otherwise he will just have to stick to getting high his illegal way

richie-rich

it has been couple of months now that he has refrained from ganja(weed). 3 months, i think. i am sure he has gone through the process where one realizes his/her faults and i dont think i simply can say, "naa, u cant do that."

does anyone know if they test it during class 1(for sure??)? Even if they do, would they be able to find it out if his last intake was 4-6 months back?

All i wanna do is help him out.

Thanx guys
Richie Rich

phnuff

I was under the impression that dope showed up for 6-8 weeks and after that, there was no trace that any test could find.

AviLGH

A widely spread misconception. In fact, unless you smoke regulary (read: daily) the standard test will come back negative after 3-4 days. If you smoke a lot it will take several months though.

While being stoned is unacceptable in the cockpit, previous marijuana experiences should not pose a problem if he keeps quiet about it. Most would agree that marijuana is the milder drug compared to alcohol. It is not physically addictive and while it is possible to, like any psychoactive substance, develop a 'mental' addiction, I've never heard of anyone being unable to quit smoking weed, even after very long periods of daily usage.

Besides it takes about six hours to sober up and flashbacks are extremly rare, if they aren't just another myth. Everyone should of course exercise caution - but *having* smoked weed in the past can't be disqualifying for a pilot career. Now if it was smack...

Onan the Clumsy

A slightly different question, but not off topic. (and no it's not about me).

What if you went on holiday to some place where marijuana was legal and you smoked some, then came back and obviously weren't under the effect any more but got selected for a random drug test which showed positive; what could happen to you?

Apart from the obvious lack of ability to see consequences (see, I didn't say lack of judgement) you did it legally and you were not under the effect. Could you be fired/fined/grounded/etc?


BTW, I passed my random drug test, though I had to guess at a couple of them.

richie-rich

thanks a lot, guys. this is great help

n e one knows about magic mushrooms? ( naa naa.just askin for the sake of it. i got my medical 1 )

richie

Flyin'Dutch'

RR

Maybe the person in question should try to reform themselves a bit before going for something which could cost quite a bit of dosh. After all spending money on flight training would be a waste if the 'reformation' is not successful.

Drugs of addiction are usually used by people with an addictive personality and despite best intentions these habits are difficult to reform.

The funny thing about reading this thread is that some people like to compare drugs with alcohol use. Although there may be some (?sound) evidence that being a bit stoned makes you not less safe than someone who is pi$$ed as a fart when it comes to driving, I think that the gold standard has to be for people to be sober when driving their cars or aeroplanes.

Call me old fashioned.

FD

phnuff

AVIlgh - I dont claim to be a great expert and so will take your word on the number of weeks

Onan, the legality of where the dope came from is immaterial, after all, its legal to drink a bottle of vodka for breakfast, but if you were caught in a cockpit (or behind a wheel), you could still be done for it (and rightly).

On this kind of subject, I have often wondered how many people would be left on an aircraft if the captain's announcement went along the lines of '
'Good morning ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain here and I will be flying the aircraft to xxxxx this morning assisted by Fred in the right hand seat. After we finish our gin and tonics, we will be taxing out to the westerly runway and taking off before turning south en route to xxx. We will be talking to you later in the flight after the cabin crew bring in our refills and take away the empties. Until then sit back and enjoy our hospitality - I know we will !! '

Onan the Clumsy

phnuff - that wasn't my question really. I was thinking of the chemicals showing up on the test because the event happened several days ago, but the effect had worn off, thereby not compromising safety etc. And the activity taking place in a legal manner.

And in case anyone missed me saying it earlier, this is purely an intelectual question.

phnuff

Onan - I stand corrected - it is hypothetical.

I guess the parallel is what would happen if you turned up for a medical with too much alcohol in the blood.

Re-entry

Fly Dutch

Where do you get off thinking alcohol is not a drug. It is the most damaging and evil chemical known to mankind . All the illegal drugs pale into insignificance compared to the damage alcohol has done. ALL the career disasters I have witnessed the last 20 years have been due to alcohol abuse- many of them talented, bright young men.

Drugs and avaition don't mix
Alcohol is the NUMBER 1 DRUG
don't smoke weed and go to flight school- maybe you'll have a chance.

Spartacan

I found the following extract in an academic journal:

'Pilots may not act in command of an aircraft, or as part of a flight crew if they have a medical or psychological problems which would make them unable to meet the requirements for their current medical certificate. The use of any prescribed or non-prescribed drug that may interfere with a pilot's faculties and threaten safety also invalidates medical certification. A recent history or sudden onset of a medical or psychological problem are therefore covered through certification. In view of the stringent requirements for psychological fitness, a history or diagnosis of the following mental disorders or states automatically leads to initial denial of medical certification and consequently spells the end of any hope of acquiring a pilots licence:

1) Psychosis.

2) Affective disorders (including bipolar disorder)

3) Personality disorders (especially where there has been evidence of overt acts of violence)

4) Substance abuse (within the preceding two years) including positive drug test results, misuse of substances that would interfere with the person's ability to perform the duties of a pilots, or record of drink / drug convictions.

5) Neurosis.

6) Self-destructive acts.

7) Disturbance or loss of consciousness.

8) Transient loss of control of nervous system functioning without satisfactory explanation of the cause.

9) Epilepsy or convulsive disorders.

10) Progressive disease of the nervous system.

As I read it the appropriate course of action would Be to stay off the narcotic for at least two years and then go for the Class 1 medical. Honestly declare the problem and let the professionals resolve the issue.

Hawk

Thanks for your interesting posting Spartacan.

If you still have the article, can you post the reference?

Cheers
Hawk

richie-rich

Dear Spartacan
Thanks for your reply. No, my friend was never into Narcotics and as i said, all he had was some weed and "mushies." Weed issue has been discussed in details. I still am waiting for someone to resolve the mushroom (mushy) issue.

Thanx
Richie

Spartacan

Hi Richie-Rich,

I'm sure we all respect the concern you show for your friend. Perhaps you should tell him that cannabis and magic mushrooms are classed as narcotics and that he needs to be clear of them for two years before seeking medical clearance to fly as a commercial pilot.

Quite apart from the public safety issue it wouldn't be good for him to spend money on flight training only to lose his licence and job in later years if the drug problem occurs.

Issues of insurance liability also have to be thought about. I.e. if he were to lose his licence due to an undeclared previous drug problem would he receive loss of license benefit?

If you are still thinking that cannabis and magic mushrooms are not narcotics then I suggest you do an internet search on the subject or perhaps ask a doctor.

Regards,

Spartacan

Snoop

The issue of drugs - legal or otherwise, will always be one that creates allot of comment and differing opinions.

The only real way for these arguments to be solved is with extensive scientific research on the effects of drugs, legal and otherwise, over both the long and short term, with differing levels of usage and across a good mix of population.

Without this research then it is down to the individual to form their own opinion. Now we are back to square one. Without conclusive research you are forming your opinions off the back of somebody else’s, which means that whatever your views, you could be wrong.

I somehow doubt that this sort of research will happen, so we are back to trying to be sensible.

With the weed, if your friend is no longer smoking and hasn't done for a while. Then he will pass his drugs test (should he be tested) and because he has left his drug dabbling youth behind he will not be worrying about getting tested in the future because he doesn’t do illegal drugs anymore. So there is no ongoing problem for anybody to be worried about.

The mushrooms I know little about other than they are way more psychoactive than weed and there is the possibility of flashbacks. As Spartacan says try doing some research on the net.

To get you started click on this:

http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~harl/mushies.html

Cheers

Snoop