topcat450

I've been tought two differing ways of dealing with an engine fire and I was interested what others had to say and what thier thoughts were? Or has anyone actually experienced one and do all rational thoughts go out the window?!

Firstly I was tought, after doing the checklist & turning off fuel etc.. if there was still a fire going then dive upto Vne in an attempt to extinguish flames. Now I always thought this reasonable and didn't really question it, until recently when another instructor told me that 'even in ww2 when the aircraft dived to 500mph+ they didn't always extinguish the fire, you're vne is well below that. You'll only fan the flames by diving'.

He advocated side slipping to point whatever smoke/flames there were away from the side you're sitting on and just get it on the ground where ever you can asap. Ie side slip to the left, (if you're on the left) and get a huge rate of descent and straighten it all up close to the ground. His reasoning that you'd be close to the ground quickly and you'd be at a reasonable speed and so you'd not be waiting an age to wash off the excess speed which arriving at vne would leave you with?

Has anyone else any thoughts/views on this, or which is best? not that I ever have to put either into practice!!!!

Pronto

I had an engine fire once while starting the engine. I have to admit that (almost) all rational thought left me and I couldn't get out fast enough. I did remember to take the fire extinguisher with me though.

Fortunately, the fire went out on its own and the AFS didn't have anything to do other than check that it was out and wasn't likely to restart.

Genghis the Engineer

My preferred view is that the first thing you want to do is starve it of fuel - in other words fuel OFF, throttle FULL - to burn all the fuel out of the lines.

After that it gets more complicated - but personally I'd be far more interested in being on the ground intact than anything else, so would be very tempted to try a slowish constant sideslip which should get me down quickly without fanning the flames too much or filling the cockpit with smoke.

Of course, if the POH has some specific advice, I'd assume that was properly thought through and follow it.

G

BeauMan

Interesting. I'd always been taught 'everything OFF', but after reading your comment above, I guess I'd end up with an amount (albeit small?) of unburnt fuel in the system somewhere. I hadn't ever thought about that.

God forbid I should ever have the need to follow that piece of your advice Ghenghis, but thankyou for sharing it!

I agree with the sideslip and getting down asap, but also remember (if you're not absolutely bricking it at that point - I'm sure I would be!) to close all the cabin air vents to help stop smoke getting in while you're descending.

Hmm, leads me to another question though - on forced landings I was taught to unlatch the door prior to landing, in case the landing was heavy, the frame was damaged, and the door couldn't be opened. I'm talking PA28 here, so only single door. What would be the drill for a forced landing due to fire? Would unlatching on the way down lead to a cabin full of smoke, or would the aeroplane's velocity and attitude and the position of the door manage to overcome that hazard?

High Wing Drifter

Have done some engine fire drills during my CPL training. They entailed a Vfe full flap dive to 1000' AGL to blow the fire out with touch drills (for engine idle and fuel ICO). I have spoken to other CPL trainees and there seems to be a variation that involves a Vne dive!!.

wbryce

With an engine fire upfront, whats the chances of it burning the mounts and causing the engine to seperate from the airframe?

slim_slag

Another variation would be 60deg banked turns, they get you down rather quickly when you don't have power. Either at Vno, Vne, or full flaps at Vfe, or even full flaps at a somewhat higher speed! - depending on who you talk to. Guess people worry less about keeping the wings on when you are on fire. Everybody seems to have a 'best way'

EGBKFLYER

Would have thought the VFE full flap dive would be to get it on the ground quick - that config would give you pretty much max ROD on a light aircraft.

Then again, a VNE dive would also get you on the ground quick - potentially into a nice self-dug little hole. I personally would leave that option til last (not sure in the stress of the situation whether I would pull gently out of the dive etc), going for the all off/ sideslip method. Other reason is that most GA cruises at levels where they would be v v low by the time they reached VNE, so better IMO to be getting down fast, looking for a spot to land and turning all off to stop the burning.

Genghis the Engineer

Without doing the sums, I'd say pretty remote. You've got engine mounts - normally made of steel that are deliberately over-engineered to take over 6 times the weight of the engine downwards, so those would have to degrade a great deal to cause a failure in gliding flight. You might lose the engine in the rather higher loads of a heavy landing subsequently - but that's a separate and rather less serious problem.

The firewall is probably much less robust than the mounts, but if that's gone, probably so are you I'm afraid - but I've never heard of one getting burned through before ground impact so I'd not lose sleep about it.

G

High Wing Drifter

The manouvre is specifically to help extinguish the fire, the fact you go down quickly is probably a nice consequence! Any slower, and you run the risk of fanning the flames. Apparently, these techniques are to also help extingish the resulting possible oil fire from a blown engine; which can burn for rather a long time (so I'm told).

FlyingForFun

There was a similar subject on here around a year ago, mightly a little less than a year ago.

The general opinion was:

- A Vne dive has the best chance of putting the fire out.

- A Vfe dive is less likely to put the fire out due to the lower airspeed, but will get your down quicker.

There was no concensus on which was "better", though.

FFF
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Miserlou

There is only one thing you want to do if you have an uncontained engine fire. You want to be on the ground watching from the outside!

How you get there is up to you but one would be advised to remain inside your own envelope, ability-wise.

At work we do a couple of by heart items if required (engine fire), find the nearest suitable airport and point the aircraft at it! Then we fly as fast as possible, though without exceeding any structural speed limits, and not so fast as to not be in a stable configuration for landing. A thought is also given to which way the wind is coming from when stopping so as to allow escape from the aircraft hindrance on account of smoke.

Smoke alerts are treated just as seriously.

Hope this doesn't sound like a sermon. Just like to help!

Captain101

My CPL training was;
Throttle Closed (establish best glide speed/attitude)
Mixture ICO
Fuel off
Check fuel pump off
Mags off
Gear down
Mayday call
Electrics off
Check if fire is out (most fires will be out by now)
--if not-- Emergency decent
Steep dive at max gear extended speed with 45 - 60 angle of bank leaving just enough height to slow and land. - Chances are it won't put the fire out but it will get you down quickly and give you a good 360 degree lookout for a suitable landing site.

Have never practiced the drill in an A/C with fixed gear but would probably opt for Vno with a steep gliding turn.

As for Vfe - worth considering on an aircraft with mechanical flaps. I like the option of deploying/retracting flaps to nail that field, so not much use in a cessna - I was taught to turn the electrics off early unless positive the fire is not electrical.

I personaly probably wouldn't opt for any structural limiting speed such as Vne with a fire and thus possible weak structure- it would also take a while to bleed that speed off before touchdown leading to a possible close encouter with a hedge!

I think what I would actually do would depent on the circumstances, situation and aircraft. This topic has definatley given me a few more ideas. Maybe a Vfe dive with 60 AoB?!

Any ideas on the fire drill when IMC over high gound??

Miserlou

Capt.101.
Problem with the spiral dive technique is that it is, in itself, an abnormal situation and cause of many accidents; a frying pan to fire situation if you like.

witchdoctor

I suspect for many, the actual choice of technique may be limited by the choice of available landing areas. No point opting for a spiral decent if it sticks you in a forest or hillside. Circumstances have a nasty habit of forcing less than ideal solutions upon you.

High Wing Drifter

I'm not suprised! According to my PoH. I should sit there craking the starter with the throttle full open and mixture ICO. Would I be alone if thinking that would take some guts? I think, unless I had passengers vacating through the only door I would be pretty much legging it (fire extinguisher or no).

Teddy Robinson

Captain 101, would suggest that IMC over hill fogged high ground in a single is not the best of places to be with or without an engine fire.

I subscribe to the Gengis fuel line clearing theory which is all about keeping the combustion brief and on the correct side of the aptly named firewall, thereafter any technique that results in the airframe arriving intact, under control and in the minimum of time over a survivable landing area seems reasonable.

This is very much a survival situation and variables such as weather, terrain, and pilot ability have to come into the equasion.

TR

Captain101

It's only abnormal if you don't normally do it, it a simple technique with quite a few applications. Nothing abnormal about it if you practice it regularly. It is taught as part of the CPL course and is a really simple and usefull tool for getting down quickly in a small area.

Teddy R - I said nothing about hill fog. Just if the cloud base and terrain height are close how do you make the call? Neither did I mention single engine, having said that the only difference you have in a twin is the option to keep flying whilst on fire! Besides, anyone who regularly does ferry flying will inevitably have to fly single engine IMC over high ground sooner or later.

Opening the throttle just adds air to an engine fire. If you read any aircrafts POH it will recommned closing the throttle as the first course of action in order to starve the combustion chamber and manifolds of air. Quickly followed by mixture to ICO (obvioulsly). Opening the throttle might clear the lines of fuel, but the fuel you are clearing will be fueling the engine fire. Cutting the mixture will isolate the fuel lines. (which should be fireproof).
The only time you should open the throttle in case of fire is during start up. I think the reason for this is because most fires on start up are caused by over-priming.

That is what I have been taught, but I stand to be corrected!

Teddy Robinson

Aye it appears we were taught a differing philosophy on these.

Single engine IMC should be planned with worst case in mind, as one does not have the option of continuing to an area where the spiral technique, or any other may be used, multi engine .. well you are having a bad day, just land it on the nearest bit of flat ground that conditions permit, and at the planning stage you will have considered the en route diversions.

Order for actions ? :
Turn the fuel off at the selector/firewall cut off... contain the fire the correct side of the firewall.
Mixture rich/throttle fully open, burn the fuel, we don't really care too much what burns because the fire is contained behind the firewall, and the limited fuel available in the lines forward of the cutoff should mean a short combustion .... with the fire out we now wish to ensure no further fuel will be available, hence throttle closed and mixture ICO .. now head for terra firma.

While planning your landing with the fire safely extinguished you have time to do the housework, check mixture ICO, throttle closed, fuel pump off, mags off, (prop feathered, crossfeed, look after live engine if in a multi).

For this I was taught (and teach) a left to right flow: it covers the POH items, but an item or two may be out of sequence, it ends with door unlocked, harness tight, pax brief.

Keep in mind that this is a time critical situation, thus these are memory items, not type specific.
POH may well say something different, and in some cases with very good reason, if so find out why, but in the unfortunate event that one is faced with this problem airborne, a set of memory items is a good idea.

The bottom line is that the items are covered, the objective, a survivable situation.