RAF & degree (or not?)
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RAF & degree (or not?)
Im coming up to my second year at sixth form and have just begun the formal application process to join the RAF as a Pilot (well, i was going for sponsorship, now i dont know).
I always assumed i would be going to Uni to do my degree in Aerospace Engineering, but the guy i spoke to at my AFCO threw me a curveball when i told him i was going to Uni in 05 - he replied with 'Why?'.
I felt having a degree would mean i'd be 4 years more mature, further understanding of learning etc, but he said the RAF is losing 4 years service from me, which is fair enough, but i thought this was more beneficial?
Does the RAF want their crews straight out of college for that extra 4 years of service, or from Uni with a degree? If i take a gap year before Uni, or for some reason there is a delay after Uni to me getting a commission, i will be over the age requirement of 17-23 (i will be 24 by a few months).
Whilest im carrying on with Uni applications aswell as RAF ones so as not to get caught out, i have concerns over certain situations.
If i defer uni entry to follow the RAF path, fail for some reason and go to uni, ill be too old afterwards to try again
If i join up, get through, and do the RAF's Open University scheme alongside my flying training, will that be too much work as many have suggested?
Will i be disadvantaging (sp) myself by attending/not attending Uni?
At the end of the day, i want a degree if i don't get offered Pilot as its something to fall back on, but im torn on whether to go to Uni or not. It's a case of giving the RAF what they want, but giving myself the best opportunites.
Any advice to those in the same place, or slightly older and further on with their applications would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
- Joe
I always assumed i would be going to Uni to do my degree in Aerospace Engineering, but the guy i spoke to at my AFCO threw me a curveball when i told him i was going to Uni in 05 - he replied with 'Why?'.
I felt having a degree would mean i'd be 4 years more mature, further understanding of learning etc, but he said the RAF is losing 4 years service from me, which is fair enough, but i thought this was more beneficial?
Does the RAF want their crews straight out of college for that extra 4 years of service, or from Uni with a degree? If i take a gap year before Uni, or for some reason there is a delay after Uni to me getting a commission, i will be over the age requirement of 17-23 (i will be 24 by a few months).
Whilest im carrying on with Uni applications aswell as RAF ones so as not to get caught out, i have concerns over certain situations.
If i defer uni entry to follow the RAF path, fail for some reason and go to uni, ill be too old afterwards to try again
If i join up, get through, and do the RAF's Open University scheme alongside my flying training, will that be too much work as many have suggested?
Will i be disadvantaging (sp) myself by attending/not attending Uni?
At the end of the day, i want a degree if i don't get offered Pilot as its something to fall back on, but im torn on whether to go to Uni or not. It's a case of giving the RAF what they want, but giving myself the best opportunites.
Any advice to those in the same place, or slightly older and further on with their applications would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
- Joe
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I always thought the OU scheme was designed so that you started studying AFTER flying training, the point being to get young guys like yourself in to the service, get your wings and onto the front line, and then supporting you through further education. 
It doesn't make much sense to me to force you to study for a degree at the same time as conducting full time flying training. Mind you, this is the RAF we are talking about....
Perhaps an option is to apply now for Direct Entry, but if unsuccessful go to Uni and apply for sponsorship after the required period. If successful second time round, you will then be given an offer of service to enter IOT when you graduate (assuming you are awarded a bursary), which may get round the age limitations.
If Mike Jenvey is lurking here, maybe he could clarify whether sponsorship can be awarded to a guy that will be over 23 at graduation, but has been successful at OASC before 23?
Damn university types always manage to make things complicated.
It doesn't make much sense to me to force you to study for a degree at the same time as conducting full time flying training. Mind you, this is the RAF we are talking about....
Perhaps an option is to apply now for Direct Entry, but if unsuccessful go to Uni and apply for sponsorship after the required period. If successful second time round, you will then be given an offer of service to enter IOT when you graduate (assuming you are awarded a bursary), which may get round the age limitations.
If Mike Jenvey is lurking here, maybe he could clarify whether sponsorship can be awarded to a guy that will be over 23 at graduation, but has been successful at OASC before 23?
Damn university types always manage to make things complicated.
Last edited by Ops and Mops; 6th Aug 2004 at 12:42.
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My bad...IOT/Flight training doesnt happen at the same time...
IOT, Flight Training and Command and Staff training give you some of the credits towards the degree, and you can use these to pick up the degree later on which fits around your RAF career.
Should read it properly
IOT, Flight Training and Command and Staff training give you some of the credits towards the degree, and you can use these to pick up the degree later on which fits around your RAF career.
Should read it properly
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Go to uni, have a blast, get a degree. Join up afterwards, have another blast, get paid as much as you would have, had you already been in for those 4 years and have a degree to wield when you leave. I haven't yet heard of anyone in the GD(P) branch having time to do the In-Service Degree thing.
I'd avoid the UAS EFT thing if poss. - same amount of hours as full-time guys whilst you undertake the 'rigours' of a uni degree? Hmmm.
No-brainer.
I'd avoid the UAS EFT thing if poss. - same amount of hours as full-time guys whilst you undertake the 'rigours' of a uni degree? Hmmm.
No-brainer.
Spugford - very sound advice indeed! That's the best way these days, I guess. The RAF can't afford the old APO at university system these days - so your way is pretty sound!
Another idea is to join the OTC at Uni to get some military training and experience, then apply for the RAF in your final year at the moment critique. Plus you get paid in the OTC!
Another idea is to join the OTC at Uni to get some military training and experience, then apply for the RAF in your final year at the moment critique. Plus you get paid in the OTC!
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What ever you do, go for and get the degree.
The degree is your passport to a wide range of career options, not just RAF pilot.
All kinds of things could happen to you on your way through the system, and with a degree you will be that much more valuable to the world as a whole, should you change your mind/get chopped/not pass a medical etc.
The degree is your passport to a wide range of career options, not just RAF pilot.
All kinds of things could happen to you on your way through the system, and with a degree you will be that much more valuable to the world as a whole, should you change your mind/get chopped/not pass a medical etc.
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Service degrees
I was lucky enough to complete 2 yrs service (RM) before going to uni. In my 3rd yr I authorised my own loading onto flying grading. Never wore a uniform (apart from weddings and funerals) for 3 yrs - and got paid even more for being in London.
There were a number of other service personel - mainly 'midi-matelots' - and, I know one of these guys is currently flying harriers fm Yeovilton.
It's a great idea - but, I would take the uni degree first - cos you'll have a great time and for all the other reasons the other responses have identified. Good luck.
(Maybe the FAA are more enlightened
)
There were a number of other service personel - mainly 'midi-matelots' - and, I know one of these guys is currently flying harriers fm Yeovilton.
It's a great idea - but, I would take the uni degree first - cos you'll have a great time and for all the other reasons the other responses have identified. Good luck.
(Maybe the FAA are more enlightened
)
Last edited by GDSD; 6th Aug 2004 at 14:44.
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If you get the degree, you will get early seniority and quickly skip the Plt Off/Fg Off ranks. The extra salary will probably pay for the outlay on student loans etc. There are opportunities at Shrivenham etc to do a one year MSc and the Aerosystems course can be converted into a MSc.
Anything which saves them money!
It's your life, not theirs. GO TO UNI!! You won't regret it - but you might need to have an understanding bank manager.
30 years ago, you would have been an Acting Pilot Officer at university, paid at what would be around £12000 p.a. in today's money. (I was paid £1200 in 1972, £1800 in 1973 - when a brand-new MGB cost £1150-ish!). Your UAS membership would have been automatic - and the flying would have been regarded as something to keep you motivated whilst studying. It would NOT have been an assessment - as it is today!
But the so-and-sos have done away with all that because they won't invest the money in you. Ignore the BS, go to uni, join the OTC, have a great time. Then - and only then - apply to the RAF!
It's your life, not theirs. GO TO UNI!! You won't regret it - but you might need to have an understanding bank manager.
30 years ago, you would have been an Acting Pilot Officer at university, paid at what would be around £12000 p.a. in today's money. (I was paid £1200 in 1972, £1800 in 1973 - when a brand-new MGB cost £1150-ish!). Your UAS membership would have been automatic - and the flying would have been regarded as something to keep you motivated whilst studying. It would NOT have been an assessment - as it is today!
But the so-and-sos have done away with all that because they won't invest the money in you. Ignore the BS, go to uni, join the OTC, have a great time. Then - and only then - apply to the RAF!
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And don't believe people when they say your degree is more important than your flying. All you need is a pass.
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Only partly relevant to this discussion, but how long until all officer entrants are degree qualified? (excepting those being commissioned from "the ranks")
I'd give it ten years, max.
I'd give it ten years, max.
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I would certainly recommend going to Uni. I was in your position this time last year. I thought that the RAF would prefer me young as well, so I discussed this with the AFCO, and they told me to tell the board in my end of OASC review that I would be interested in DE even though I was applying for a bursary. So that's what I did. Went off to uni last year, went to OASC while there, told them what the AFCO has told me to tell them. I was subsequently offered a bursary in GD(P)!!
Now at a UAS, flying (when das teutor is working), getting rat ar$ed and being paid, a little, now and then.
I would also recommend the OTC route, there's a couple of GDE guys I know who took that route. You get paid more, and probably end up being better prepared for part 2 of OASC than you would after being on a UAS. Also gives you a chance to focus fully on your first third of flying training when you graduate from IOT.
There's also loads of laydeeees at uni, forgot that part.
Good luck chap!!
TMA
Now at a UAS, flying (when das teutor is working), getting rat ar$ed and being paid, a little, now and then.
I would also recommend the OTC route, there's a couple of GDE guys I know who took that route. You get paid more, and probably end up being better prepared for part 2 of OASC than you would after being on a UAS. Also gives you a chance to focus fully on your first third of flying training when you graduate from IOT.
There's also loads of laydeeees at uni, forgot that part.
Good luck chap!!
TMA
Back in non-PC days when they used to hold a "Miss TAVR" competition, the ladies from ULOTC took something like 5 out of the top 6 or 7 places..... 
If the RAF still had the same university scheme which my contemporaries and I enjoyed, I'd recommend that. But they don't, so I won't! Go to university and join the OTC!
If the RAF still had the same university scheme which my contemporaries and I enjoyed, I'd recommend that. But they don't, so I won't! Go to university and join the OTC!
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Joe,
All of the above is great advice and in many respects I agree but I have to say I'm going to throw a couple of other ideas into the pot.
Firstly, is it the RAF you want to join or would you enjoy flying with the other services. There are plenty of threads about the differences between the services, but crucially the Royal Navy accepts Aircrew (you go through as a joint pilot/observer candidate and they offer one or the other) up to the age of 26 and I believe the Army Air Corps. set their age limit about the same.
Secondly, how much would you owe at the end of your degree? Just a thought as for many this can be a deciding factor because it can make chasing civil aviation that bit harder if the forces don't accept them and they have huge debts.
Obs cop
All of the above is great advice and in many respects I agree but I have to say I'm going to throw a couple of other ideas into the pot.
Firstly, is it the RAF you want to join or would you enjoy flying with the other services. There are plenty of threads about the differences between the services, but crucially the Royal Navy accepts Aircrew (you go through as a joint pilot/observer candidate and they offer one or the other) up to the age of 26 and I believe the Army Air Corps. set their age limit about the same.
Secondly, how much would you owe at the end of your degree? Just a thought as for many this can be a deciding factor because it can make chasing civil aviation that bit harder if the forces don't accept them and they have huge debts.
Obs cop
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Luckily my year (current yr 13 students) are the last year to dodge the top-up fees, so in total, for a 3 yr course id be looking at £10k (ish). Fortunately for me, my family is in the position where this isnt a problem.
Secondly, yes, the RAF is the service i want to join. I have thought about FAA and AAC but given my family history with the RAF, its always been them. Civil aviation just doesnt appeal to me im afraid, it never has really.
I guess it would be useful to look into the AAC and FAA a bit more, just its the RAF i really want!
Just looked at the UOTC homepage btw, didnt even know such an organisation existed! Looks very appealing, thanks very much for pointing that out!
Secondly, yes, the RAF is the service i want to join. I have thought about FAA and AAC but given my family history with the RAF, its always been them. Civil aviation just doesnt appeal to me im afraid, it never has really.
I guess it would be useful to look into the AAC and FAA a bit more, just its the RAF i really want!
Just looked at the UOTC homepage btw, didnt even know such an organisation existed! Looks very appealing, thanks very much for pointing that out!
Last edited by joe2812; 7th Aug 2004 at 13:57.
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Joe,
Don't even think twice about joining the UAS and going to uni, especailly if you are in the position where your parents are going to be helping you finance!!
I'm in the third year of UAS, doing a non engineering degree. Meaning i can easily afford to go up to the airfield once a week... when we have aircraft that is!!
Have had an awesome time, learnt so much about military, especailly officer lifestyle... have had a small income over the last two years from the RAF and enjoyed a colourful social scene!
Doing EFT along side a degree is challenging, but if your good enough to be a pilot you'll breeze through it! the plus side is that once your graduate IOT you'll get streamed straight away and be flying the bigger boys toys!!
Don't even think twice about joining the UAS and going to uni, especailly if you are in the position where your parents are going to be helping you finance!!
I'm in the third year of UAS, doing a non engineering degree. Meaning i can easily afford to go up to the airfield once a week... when we have aircraft that is!!
Have had an awesome time, learnt so much about military, especailly officer lifestyle... have had a small income over the last two years from the RAF and enjoyed a colourful social scene!
Doing EFT along side a degree is challenging, but if your good enough to be a pilot you'll breeze through it! the plus side is that once your graduate IOT you'll get streamed straight away and be flying the bigger boys toys!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
If you get your degree before you join you will start at Flying Officer, the green shield route stopped some time ago, but you will only do a couple of years as an FO. Time well spent avoiding responsibility. And you will probably be a flt lt by the time you finish training.
As far as getting an in-service degree, the blanket stackers etc get buckets of credits in the training system and then can get the degree in a coupe of years after starting productive service. As aircrew do not bank on it.
A BS gets it all done and then does a modicum of OTJ. The aircrew qualify, convert, become operational, blink and start again to pass the annual standards checks. In between you are either on route, out of area, or detached to Cyprus or Red Flag.
If your feet touch the ground it will be in the bar with a tinny.
As far as getting an in-service degree, the blanket stackers etc get buckets of credits in the training system and then can get the degree in a coupe of years after starting productive service. As aircrew do not bank on it.
A BS gets it all done and then does a modicum of OTJ. The aircrew qualify, convert, become operational, blink and start again to pass the annual standards checks. In between you are either on route, out of area, or detached to Cyprus or Red Flag.
If your feet touch the ground it will be in the bar with a tinny.