Farny Burrow

It's almost time to announce the results of the Nats airport (and center) lottery/Bingo grading game - so get your numbers ready!

For those that don't know, Nats pay grades at airports looks set to change from Atco 2 and Atco 3, to Atco 0 - Atco 5, where 0 is the lowest band, and 5 is the highest. The grades will change for London, Manc and scottish too of course...

And how have they decided who gets what? Well, it's the patented Nats Formula Bingo game. (Based on an American model...) Pay will be related to how complicated or busy the workload at a unit is. It's all come about from Stansted getting as busy as Gatwick was when they got bumped up a grade.

The thing is, the results aren't quite as expected. The college came out with the highest complexity (!) while Birmingham got a much higher score than Stansted. Southampton got quite a high score as well, though it remains in band 1, with City (tower only), Luton (tower only) and Farnborough (Tower, Approach, and Lars).

However, a closer inspection of how the scores was reached has raised some issues. For Farnborough, the tower movements are at about 150 or so a day - but there is scope to almost double that within the council limits. There is no controlled airspace either (the only nats airport without it). However there are another 75000 Lars movements, and approach movements for at least 4 other airfields. All these radar movements have been ignored in the scoring of the unit, as has the airshow, as they are apparently "non-quantifiable". Full statistics, including numbers of Fis, Ris and Ras is available, as well as numbers for a few thousand airshow movements. As there is no controlled airspace, you can't just ignore the Fis traffic when vectoring inbounds, or the other 100 or so unknowns.

It's the fact that so much work is being ignored that is the problem, rather than how much money everyone else will get. Morale has plummeted. Being a small unit also means working 6 on, 3 off, which means 30 more days at work a year than a 6 on, 4 off unit. Everyone has extra jobs too, that are not paid for, so that the unit runs smoothly, as there is just a manager ATS, and one admin officer, plus 3 watches and the ATSAs (which are in short supply)

It turns out that London city got a much higher score than Farnborough because of this, as did Southampton and Luton. Is it right that a tower only unit gets a much higher score than a tower and multiple radar unit with a similar number of tower movements, and thousands more radar movements?

The next band will prob be the scottish airports with Cardiff, and then the next band is birmingham and stansted, followed by Gatwick and Manc, and then the ATCO 5 units are Heathrow, Nerc, TC, Scottish, Manc area and the college.

We're told that no-one will lose money, but that it will be a lot easier to earn more money by moving to a higher graded unit. They will make it easier to move from unit to unit. Will anyone want to work at the bottom?

Of course, there will be bigger gaps between the bands, especially at the top. Expect pay rises to show this... And the scores will be re-evaluated every 3 years. So if Easyjet and Ryanair go bust, expect stansted to drop from atco 3 to atco 1.

So what do you all think of this? Is it fair? While this (rather long) post is a slight rant for having most of my work ignored, I'm not completely against the whole idea. Well, not so sure about the college complexity issues...!

There's lots more info too, but this will do for now. I suspect it will come out in the pay offer. Anyway, post what you think, or what the feelings at your unit are about it...

Farny Burrow.

5milesbaby

This is certainly a topic to be discussed in our private forum and not in public view.

...I'll never agree with TT though....

Barny F Rough

A lot of Nats people can't get on the Nats Forum - not that there's anything there! And lots more read this while not being a member. The Nats Pay/WP thread has been happy here, so I'm quite happy to post my views on this forum too.

Personally, I think there's some shafting going on, so that Heathrow can be paid even more money, to try and get people to go there. Part of the banding is to make it easier to move up a unit, but I bet it's still impossible to get out of Heathrow...

Whats' TT (excuse my ignorance)?? And just how complex is a 9-5 job at the college?

Barny

bagpuss lives

I was under the informed impression that MACC Area is most certainly not in the same "band" as LACC, CATC and TC but in band 4?

5milesbaby

Thats what I heard niteflight, only LTCC/LACC/EGLL and the college in top band.

I moved this into the NATS forum for those that dont want public votes, I'll however gladly publicise my own response:

My thoughts on this are that a structured pay deal like this has been on the cards for years, and is justified as long as the right units get the right scale but already, as Farny hints, there is one ruffled collar. Pay cannot be uniform in so many different environments, but those environments that deserve more should benefit. I hope, lest expect that the negotiating team have done their work and attempted to grade all units accordingly, I feel there will be some that think they are being undervalued though. I agree that the college do not deserve top rank either, but they are mostly ATCO 1's at the moment. Off the issue but raised at my unit was the need for 5 years experience to train in the non radar college, but only 2 years to become a mentor on fully live traffic, thats one I think I'll never understand.

But then its easy to look at this simply being at LACC.....

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Barny, if you are NATS then getting on the Private Forum is easy. Just e-mail the link provided.

If you dont know TT (Traffic Traffic) yet, then this is almost certainly the thread you'll meet him in

Scott Voigt

If you don't get credit for working VFR advisories, then it isn't patterened after they way that we do things. You should look at the way we do our banding to see all the different things that we give credit for.

regards

Scott

055166k

If you don't get paid for the service provided one should be asking why on earth you provide it. The idea of providing a wide-ranging and non-revenue service is totally out of date in the modern NATS. The answer is TOLL airspace in the same way the TOLL motorways/bridges work. In fact this super idea could work for the Mil too!

intentionally blank

The whole thing is hugely unfair and divisive.

A two year deal goes against branch policy (all those heated debates at conference are such a waste of time.)

The Scottish airports are (effectively) lumped in with the smallest of the regionals in band 1 (we get the same pay rise).

Centres worth more? MAybe but then airport staff work full shifts and are far more flexible.

Prospect has just managed to look worse than mangement by DELIBERATELY sidelining and (effectively) downgrading a large chunk of an already disenchanted membership.

No dopubt some greedy ATCO 2 will take offence at this and tell me that it is all I deserve, you are wrong. Airport staff (with the exception of BB and SS) have yet again been badly let down by a TU which ironically only cares for the majority.

SonicTPA

More information has been released, and there is more unfairness than was first thought.

Band 5 LACC, LTCC, LL, Hurn, HQ. Total pay rise 14.7% (over 2yrs)
4: KK,CC, MACC, ScOACC. 10.7% over 2 yrs
3: SS, BB. 12.7% over 2 yrs
2: PF, PH, PD, AA, FF. 8.7 %
1: GW, HI, LC, LF and ranges. 8.7%

However, the extra 2% or half spine point over 1 year for bands 1 and 2 is not pensionable - how does that work in your pay packet. Will it remain non pensionable in the 2nd year??

When it comes to the vote, the higher banded units also have more staff. They are getting a hefty rise, and will prob vote yes. Farnborough has 18 votes, and the others in Band 1 don't have many more staff either. If we vote no, it won't make a difference.

So stamped on again by the big boys.

Sonic

Geffen

Don't forget that 8.7% is still way above inflation on salaries that are way above national average, heck after two years maybe we will all get the same percentage rise?

Roger Dodge

Intentionally Blank

I am sure that this 'unfair' world that we live in is very demoralising, but I cannot just sit here and read your blinkered remarks without comment.

You bleat on about how you always work a full shift, if that is the case, then my hat goes off to you, but I cannot believe that you work every shift from start to finish, every day you are in.

I presume (dangerous I know) that you work at an airport north of the border. I'm sure that you must have a nice house and live a fairly comfortable life. You state in one thread that you do not have a desire to work in London. Why is this??? Because it is overcrowded?? Is a nause to get to work?? It costs a stupid amount of money to buy a house??? That alone is worth the extra 6%. Oh sorry, I forgot the £1500 London weighting we get every year to make up for the huge gulf in house prices!!!!

Yes I am an ATCO 2, yes I work at LTCC, Yes I work hard, Yes I may leave 1/2 hour before the end of the shift sometimes, but when all is said and done, the traffic levl and complexity that I deal with on a day to day basis is higher than what you deal with and that justifies a higher salary. If that makes me 'greedy' as you so eloquently put it then so be it. If you feel that strongly, get down here and see how 'cushy' our lives really are!!!!!!!!

Jerricho

R D, what you bitchin' about this time?

You're still on the T&D scale aren't you? You're just jumping on the band wagon.

flower

Management must be rubbing their hands with glee if reading these threads, divide and rule springs instantly to mind.

The regrading is IMHO a sham, they have not I have been advised taken into account movements in Glass G as they are unquantifiable, sorry that is ludicrous. To state that a service you provide will not be taken into account because its to hard to figure out is insulting in the extreme.
Those of us who provide services outside CAS understand the difficulties involved, vectoring scheduled traffic outside CAS providing RAS and RIS etc but apparently unless movements are inside CAS they simply don't count
I have no objections to a regrading of unit pay, providing that regrading is fair. From what i have seen so far it doesn't on the surface in any way appear fair.
I am trying to find out when the figures they based the grading on were taken, if they were taken when i believe they were then my unit has lost out.
What is often not realised at the larger units is up until now we at the regions have had to be very flexible in our working habits just to ensure things work, IE keep the airports open. With the way we have been portrayed in this regrading I expect a lot of goodwill will go.
If someone is genuinely working a lot harder then yes they should be paid more, but how you can quantify who works hardest I haven't a clue. The system they have chosen as their model has ignored to many facets of ATC to be in anyway fair.
The actual basic pay rise I have no issue with, AAVAs i have no real issue with, the regrading I am extremely unhappy about.

robbie d

Well done to the GW radar controllers at LTCC.

What a fantastic result. You are going to be on point 5 while the colleagues that you left behind, all of 2 1/2 years ago, are going to be on point 1.

NATS - A FAIR EMPLOYER.

So, how many people at GW tower would like to travel an extra 35 miles to go to work at LTCC now. Now don`t all go leaving at once.

WMD

Robbie D, That's not the half of it! - they (the GW radar boys) work perhaps 3 aircraft an hour (if busy) and sit reading their books/mags or using their laptops for the rest of the time whilst the majority of us area folks are working our b@$$@cks off. -

Unfortunately, that's the way it is - and , no , it's not fair.

WMD

PS They're nearly all at the top of the scale too......

Slaphead

robbie d

See if you can spot the difference;

There are ATCOs valid on Gatwick radar at TC who used to work for NATS at Gatwick and who now earn more money than their former colleagues at Gatwick Tower.

There are ATCOs valid on Stansted/Essex radar at TC who used to work for NATS at Stansted and who now earn more money than their former colleagues at Stansted Tower.

There are ATCOs valid on Luton radar at TC who used to work for Luton Airport until NATS won the contract and moved the radar function to TC and who now earn more money than their former colleagues at Luton Tower.

It might not be fair but it isn't the fault of the individuals. That said, within reason all staff at a unit should achieve the unit minimum competency but that isn't unique to TC.

Third Party

I understood that all traffic outside CAS - LARS, RAS, RIS, transits was counted in the scoring system and that the work was done jointly by Prospect and NATS. Is it not the case then that if a Unit is Tower only, it will make no real difference in total traffic terms against a Tower & Approach Unit? Has Birmingham gone up because of proxity to Coventry?

On grading it seems B5 will be LACC, LTCC, LHR and CATC. The B1 Units (current ATCOs) though are going to get same as B2 which is 2%, those coming in later will get the current ATCO 3 pay rate plus the 2-year pay deal.

Roger Dodge

Jerricho

Ah if only it were true!! I am a "grown up" now.

Don't even start on that little topic. Whoever decided in the last WPP changes that when you validate, if it is before your 2 years is up having left the college, then you stay on the T+D scale until it is!!

Intentionally Blank, is that a fair way to pay people?? I don't think so, but it paved the way for a nice pay rise a few years ago.

Third Party

I really should check what I write, that would be "proximity" to Coventry!!!!

When is smoke on pay, WPA, AAVA etc. expected from ATCO BEC?

PA7

An ATCO is an ATCO is an ATCO is how Prospect tried to put this across...well that sorts out Bands 3 to 5 what about about bands 1 and 2.
The word band is an interesting term which in reality is a smoke screen to hide the fact in real terms some units have been demoted to ATCO 4's and ATCO 5's, great for self esteem that one.
Interesting also that the Scottish airfields are all the same band, that was probably to avoid civil war North of the Border, can you imagine the bloodshed if Glasgow (The true Capital of Scotland) was put above Edinburgh.
CATC as usual manage to top the scales I suppose that is to guarantee the yes votes and to think that some of the Approach Radar Instructors have never been valid at a NATS unit
A lot has been written about the changes in working practices at LACC and the 0530 starts, no one however blinks an eye when the working practices change at the Airports and have been on going for years. I would say to the LACC ATCO's if you don't like the changes to WP then vote NO, remember there is a lot more to this pay deal than just money.
Band 1/ATCO 5 units are unlikely to attract any students from CATC and the instructers will be over qualified!!! so it will be the failures and the odd nutter that will be sent to these units, which may in time gradually degrade the effectiveness of that unit.
Well I am going to vote NO, on principle I hope that enough of you out there do the same regardless of where you work and help stop this madness