Since the Irish Aviation Bulletin Board has been down for some time now (anyone know if it's coming back?) I shall ask this here.

What are the rules for night VFR in Ireland? I'm thinking about popping over to Kinsale for a birthday dinner in November which would almost certainly involve arriving at Cork airport after dark.

I have a UK Night Qualification but no IR, and of course my IMC goes u/s halfway across the Irish Sea!

There used to be no Night VFR in Ireland, but I assume that this has changed post-JAR. So I can't be much help there.

However.... I wouldn't seriously plan on being able to complete a flight to Kinsale under VMC in November. Your odds of being able to get there legally are very very slim.

Nice part of the world though. I can see the attraction

Night flying in Ireland... Sounds great. If you want some talking ballast/aeroplane minder just let me know....!!!!

I think it's bad news...

My understanding is that night VFR is only permitted within a control zone, so unless you can reach the Cork zone boundary before night then you'll be IFR on your x-country section.

Night in Ireland:
Summer (1/4 to 30/9) - SS+30 mins
Winter - night starts at sunset.

(I definitely second CSX's comment about VMC around Cork in November.....wouldn't want to have anything too urgent to get back for)

N reg Aztec

That certainly was the position on night VFR pre-JAR, and talking to a few mates around here who do that kind of thing, the consensus is that nothing has changed. So it may well be bad news for Fly Stimulator.

ATPL for hire anybody? I could go for Kinsale in November

Charlie

IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY (RULES OF THE AIR) ORDER, 2001


34(7)(iii) Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.

Thanks chaps and Charlie,

Clearly I need to get there when it's light so that if I get stuck I do so at the Irish, rather than the English, end of the journey.

I can think of worse places than Kinsale to be marooned for a few days.

As a point all flights in the UK at night are required to operate under IFR as well. There is no such thing as night VFR.

You do not require an IR rating to fly IFR you just have to follow IFR - Instrument Flight RULES. Above 3000ft quadrantal rules apply, below 3000ft maintain 1000ft above obstructions 5nm either side of track. Obviously clear of cloud and insight of the surface applies for a pilot without an IR.

When a flight commenses or terminates at an airfield within a control zone and the pilot does not hold an instrument rating then these sections of the flight will have to be conducted in accordance with special VFR.

It is advised to file a flight plan for a night flight that will terminate at an aerodrome other than the point of departure.

I am advised by the Irish CAA that under JAR the rules are the same for Ireland.

The same rules apply to a pilot who wants to fly into the Channel Islands at night. You must file IFR and then gain a SVFR clearance to enter the zone.

True in the UK. Not true in Ireland, or most other places on the planet.

In Ireland, as with most other countries, an IR is required to file IFR regardless of the met conditions. So I am assured by my Irish colleague.

Charlie

scopeland,

Yes, you are quite right of course about 'night VFR.'

I suppose what I should have asked was whether the IAA also treat night flying as IFR by definition and, further to that, whether a non instrument-rated pilot can fly IFR in Irish airspace at any time of day.

I just repeated what the Irish Aviation Authority told me when I asked if I could fly into Waterford at night. They told me that under the "harmonisation" of JAR that the rules were the same as the UK.

You can file under Instrument Flight Rules without an IR provided you were clear of cloud etc and that you gained a Special VFR clearance to enter a control zone.

I cut and paste the contents of there email in my last post.

If that is not good enough then I suggest that instead of rumour that FS needs to contact them and get it in writing for himself.

Interesting.

My understanding is that the JAR rules actually aren't very harmonised at all in this area, and that the UK allows a more-or-less unique degree of freedom for non-IR and indeed non-IMC pilots to fly under IFR.

If the IAA has chosen to model its rules on those of the UK then that's jolly helpful of them. As you suggest, giving them a call is probably a good idea.

Did you do your Waterford night trip in the end?

Iy was the reason I put "harmonisation" in brackets!!! I don't believe anything in JAR is harmonised and I don't think that those who are meant to interpret the rules really understand them!!

It would be good if you contact them and let us knwo if your experiance was the same as mine.

We have still not made our trip, my Cessna rant out of check hours 2 days before the trip and we have not had chance to reschedule it as it now on it's CofA.

But we will do the trip, hopefully!!!

To look at it practically, how can one fly at night, unless it's a fair size moon, and few if any clouds?

Unless one has had adequate instrument flight training to be able to fly and navigate in IMC, it is an accident looking for a place to happen, in my view, if someone merely goes by the "in sight of surface, clear of cloud" rule.

I have both a Night Rating and the IMC Rating, and use the latter too, and while I don't have many night hours (about 10, hard to do lots due to airfield closing times around where I am) I have done enough to realise that PPL style flying and navigation is hopeless unless there is plenty of illumination and very obvious ground features.

I think it's great how one can fly around the UK, IFR, it's a unique freedom, but I do think night flying after merely PPL-level training (plus a few hours) is a different proposition.

In the crew room, we have a copy of a document called the

Irish Aviation Authority (Personnel Licensing) Order 2000.

The following is taken directly from it:

Flight under Instrument Flight Rules

19. (1) A person shall not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in the State under instrument flight rules unless such person holds a valid instrument rating -

(a) issued or validated by the Authority and endorsed in or deemed by the Authority to be included in the licence held by such person or in the validation of such licence, as the case may be, and

(b) appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown.

(2) A person shall not, within the State, act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot in a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in any other state under instrument flight rules unless that person holds a valid licence, with a current instrument rating endorsed thereon or included therein, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered and appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown.



So, I would say that it looks pretty definitive. The IAA have standardised on the JAR model as Scopeland says. It is the UK who are at odds with it.

You need an IR to fly under IFR in Ireland, regardless of the weather conditions.

Love

Charlie

I agree completely, night flight is instrument flight. I am the holder and very regular user of the same qualifications (as well as currently studying for a JAR/IR) and would not want to have attempted a night crossing as a basic PPL.

I have done a couple of long distance night flights that ended up with Instrument let downs as the weather on route went IMC!

FS,

My understanding is that night flight is only permitted in this country in controlled airspace.

That is a view shared by my all my previous instructors.

The IAA is very helpful, however they don't get as many queries as I'm sure the CAA get, and therefore probably aren't as up to speed as they should be. They have told me in the past about stuff that I knew was wrong, and only agreed when I showed them my source.

There ph number is +353-1-6718655/Fax +353-1-6707411

I suggest that if you contact them and they tell you that the position is the same as in the UK, that you get it in writing from them before you leave.

dp

ps. By the way Scopeland...quadrangle rules don't apply in Ireland....we use the semi-circle rules above 3,000'

There is a new bb for irish avaition at

http://www.irishaviators.com/

I don't know if my posting has become "invisible" to recent posters because it was the last on the previous page, or because you were just ignoring me!

The advice given earlier that the rules regarding IFR in Ireland are "the same as the UK", is definitely wrong.

All of the relevant Irish legislation is online at www.iaa.ie, and is there for all to see. In my post, on the last page, I quoted directly from it.

You need an IR to file IFR in Ireland (just like most other places). You cannot fly VFR at night outside control zones. As a result, practical x-country flying in Ireland at night without an IR is a non-starter. All of this is completely independent from the weather. Even with no clouds in the sky, a non-IR holder cannot file IFR

Charlie.

well...... I have just called the IAA on the number given by dublinpilot and talked to licensing standards. They have just told me that night flight is allowable in Ireland without an IR rating!

They said what was the point of there being a seperate JAR night rating if no one could actually fly on it unless they also had an IR?

I have been given the email address of the head of JAR licensing and I am about to email him directly and ask him to make public comment.

I will keep you updated!!

Scopeland

We are going in circles here.


Night Flight in Ireland can be under VFR or IFR

Night VFR however is only available in Control Zones and subject to weather minima. It can be performed without any kind of instrument qualification, because the JAA PPL allows flight at night.

Once outside a control zone at Night, all flight must be under IFR. To fly IFR in Ireland (day or night, rain or shine) requires an instrument rating.


Therefore...... Yes you can fly at night in Ireland without an Instrument rating (in a CTZ)..... No its not very useful for cross-country flying because you will need to leave the control zone at some point to get to your destination.


Ask the wrong question and you will get a misleading answer Scopeland...


Love

Charlie.