The Kings crown
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The Kings crown
Had a (un)interesting chat at work today. At the moment, all of our Cap badges, Squadron crests (Squadron arm badges) etc etc all bear a representation of the Queens crown....even down to the buttons on our best Uniforms. When good Queen Bess departs to be relieved by Good King George( Charles)....does that mean that we will all have to change our cap badges, Squadron Crests etc etc to bear the image of the Kings crown ? And if we will do, who is going to pay for it....
....any prunners around when we last changed from the Kings Crown to the Queens crown ? What happened then ?
....any prunners around when we last changed from the Kings Crown to the Queens crown ? What happened then ?
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I suspect that not many are still around from them days. But my old man says that the hardest bit wasn't the buttons and badges - it was the nause of changing the halberds and pikes fer them new fangled percussion weapons. 
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The answer to your question is YES!
We will all have to change to the kings crown, on all badges, crests, buttons and anything else that currently shows the queens crown!
Cheers, FD
We will all have to change to the kings crown, on all badges, crests, buttons and anything else that currently shows the queens crown!
Cheers, FD
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I "volunteered" 
in 1962 ergo Queens Crown. As two uncles had "fallen" in Conflict, I was "made aware" that I "Could" wear the "KINGS Crown". This was THREE days before my discharge.....
The "Rules" NOW, I am saying NOWT!
bb
in 1962 ergo Queens Crown. As two uncles had "fallen" in Conflict, I was "made aware" that I "Could" wear the "KINGS Crown". This was THREE days before my discharge..... The "Rules" NOW, I am saying NOWT! bb
and CAPITALISATION?
From the coronation of Edward VII (1902?) until 1953, military badges, flags, etc. bore a stylised and largely fictitious representation of the Tudor Crown (a crown which does not actually exist, since All Tudor regalia was destroyed after the English Civil War!).
Edward VII, who invented state pomp and pageantry as we know it today, regulated the shape of the Crown in iconography. The new standardised shape was originally called the Tudor crown because it was supposedly modelled on one worn by Henry VII, and it came to be known as the Imperial Crown because its image was standardised throughout the Empire. It has been said that the Tudor Crown's domed shape was chosen to make it more similar to the other European imperial crowns.
In 1952, Sir George Bellew, Garter King of Arms, persuaded the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, and the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals, that it would be more appropriate if the crown surmounting the Royal Cypher was a realistic representation of the actual Crown of England, rather than being a representation of a crown that did not actually exist. There may also have been some desire to remove the Imperial Crown from iconography to reflect the end of Empire and the start of Commonwealth.
It was subsequently announced that: "The Queen wishes the St Edward's Crown to take the place of the Tudor Crown in all future designs embodying a representation of the crown."
It was decided, however, that existing designs should not be changed unless or until it was necessary to do so, but that when a design embodying the crown had to be changed, the St Edward's Crown should be substituted for the Tudor Crown. It was laid down that no unnecessary expense should be incurred in making the change and where alterations in existing designs would involve such expense they should be deferred. It was stressed that Her Majesty had no objection to two different designs of the crown (i.e. the existing design and the new design) being used concurrently.
Thus current buttons, badges, etc. (though not all squadron badges) have the St Edward's Crown.
But this is simply the actual Crown - and not some 'female' or 'Queen's Crown', and this will be the crown that the next monarch will wear at their coronation, and which will therefore almost certainly be retained.
The idea that there is a "King's Crown" and a different "Queen's Crown" may be 'urban legend' and may be widely reported but it is simply wrong! The design just happened to change with the last change of monarch, which happened to be a change from King to Queen.
Edward VII, who invented state pomp and pageantry as we know it today, regulated the shape of the Crown in iconography. The new standardised shape was originally called the Tudor crown because it was supposedly modelled on one worn by Henry VII, and it came to be known as the Imperial Crown because its image was standardised throughout the Empire. It has been said that the Tudor Crown's domed shape was chosen to make it more similar to the other European imperial crowns.
In 1952, Sir George Bellew, Garter King of Arms, persuaded the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, and the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals, that it would be more appropriate if the crown surmounting the Royal Cypher was a realistic representation of the actual Crown of England, rather than being a representation of a crown that did not actually exist. There may also have been some desire to remove the Imperial Crown from iconography to reflect the end of Empire and the start of Commonwealth.
It was subsequently announced that: "The Queen wishes the St Edward's Crown to take the place of the Tudor Crown in all future designs embodying a representation of the crown."
It was decided, however, that existing designs should not be changed unless or until it was necessary to do so, but that when a design embodying the crown had to be changed, the St Edward's Crown should be substituted for the Tudor Crown. It was laid down that no unnecessary expense should be incurred in making the change and where alterations in existing designs would involve such expense they should be deferred. It was stressed that Her Majesty had no objection to two different designs of the crown (i.e. the existing design and the new design) being used concurrently.
Thus current buttons, badges, etc. (though not all squadron badges) have the St Edward's Crown.
But this is simply the actual Crown - and not some 'female' or 'Queen's Crown', and this will be the crown that the next monarch will wear at their coronation, and which will therefore almost certainly be retained.
The idea that there is a "King's Crown" and a different "Queen's Crown" may be 'urban legend' and may be widely reported but it is simply wrong! The design just happened to change with the last change of monarch, which happened to be a change from King to Queen.
Where is Beags when you need him....he has been around since Wellington's days and thus should be able to sort this out for us easily. Word has it....he still wears the same powdered wig.
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Very interesting Jacko, makes for good reading.
However, most mil people have always referred to the two crowns as either King or Queen (types). I know I did and I have both as they were issued following promotions - now seemingly relics!
However, most mil people have always referred to the two crowns as either King or Queen (types). I know I did and I have both as they were issued following promotions - now seemingly relics!
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Well in two jags Prescot can spend £600ish on changing his office door sign no doubt the MOD will spend millions changing all our buttons, etc, which will no doubt be paid for but a cut in capability somewhere!
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When I joined (1958) my father gave me his hat badge. When I first wore the thing it was questioned by the SWO at St Athan because I was ". . . to young to have had it issued." He relented when told it was my old man's badge and told me "Keep it clean and bright then lad."
Wore it long and hard for the rest of my time in the mob, kept it when I left. The same King's Crown hat badge is now worn by my son-in-law at BZ. He's had it remarked upon too, same sentiment allows its continued use. Now my father joined the mob in 1939 so the bagde has been in 'service' for yonks (or 67 years) - not bad for a bit of brass. Mind you, the pin lugs have been re-soldered a few times, the splt pin retainer replaced many times and it's quite smooth now, but it still polishes up a treat.
As 'Pop' says above, the difference was always known as King's and Queens badges in my time and, funnily enough, still is according to my s-i-l. Further, it would seem they're somewhat sought after.
Anyway, it always looked a lot better than those bright plastic things we were issued with in the early 70s. They looked nothing more than Xmas tree decorations to me.
.
Wore it long and hard for the rest of my time in the mob, kept it when I left. The same King's Crown hat badge is now worn by my son-in-law at BZ. He's had it remarked upon too, same sentiment allows its continued use. Now my father joined the mob in 1939 so the bagde has been in 'service' for yonks (or 67 years) - not bad for a bit of brass. Mind you, the pin lugs have been re-soldered a few times, the splt pin retainer replaced many times and it's quite smooth now, but it still polishes up a treat.
As 'Pop' says above, the difference was always known as King's and Queens badges in my time and, funnily enough, still is according to my s-i-l. Further, it would seem they're somewhat sought after.
Anyway, it always looked a lot better than those bright plastic things we were issued with in the early 70s. They looked nothing more than Xmas tree decorations to me.
.
Crowns
In rather the same way as Beeayeate I inherited a mess kit jacket from my FiL. As he'd been commissioned prior to WW2 the buttons had been well polished by a succession of batmen over the years. Most of the buttons were well worn but I'm sure the crowns were different from those on my first No5 (vintage 1963). Once or twice various PMCs had a little dig about "incorrect" dress but it's amazing what you can ignore if you put your mind to it.
The Ancient Mariner
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Prescott? Office? What earthly use would that imbecile have for an office? Oh, I forgot, nailing his secretary. Back to thread...
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But once Charlie takes over I wonder who will be the first brave Mr Vice to respond to the loyal toast with Ladies and Gentlemen the King, followed by a shake of the hips and a quiet uh huh huh
...............I for one will pi@@ my self
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
...............I for one will pi@@ my self all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
representing the Scottish 
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Lucky we only have to change badges and buttons
There was a time (circa 17th century and later) when the complete wardrobe of uniform (including swords) would change from silver to gold and back again, whenever the Monarch changed - at the expense to the individual, particularly the O's who, in those days, purchased their Commissions
Still got a genuine Crombie Long greatcoat with (gold) annodised Queen's Crown buttons for sale
There was a time (circa 17th century and later) when the complete wardrobe of uniform (including swords) would change from silver to gold and back again, whenever the Monarch changed - at the expense to the individual, particularly the O's who, in those days, purchased their Commissions
Still got a genuine Crombie Long greatcoat with (gold) annodised Queen's Crown buttons for sale
I joined in Dec '53 and there was a considerable mix of crowns to be seen then. All we 'sprogs' were issued with the Queen's version but all the old hands had King's crowns. IIRC they were only changed with new issue clothing.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
About 1964 the buttons were all changed by order.
The original buttons, both anodised and plain brass, had the Queen's crown but for some reason the air box decided we would adopt a new button.
This button has exactly the same crown as its predecessor and was in all respects identical from a distance of 6 feet or more.
The new button was known as the Domed button as it had a higher profile than the previous flatter version.
There was no question of continuing to use the older button until one's uniform was changed. Officers all had to buy new buttons, at their own expense although the station tailor did all the airmen's. The 3 buttons on the No 1 were not too bad. It was the dozen of so on the greatcoat that cost as these were not sewn on and a tailor had to open up the lining.
Given Jacko's quote about Liz's attitude, I bet she never knew.
The original buttons, both anodised and plain brass, had the Queen's crown but for some reason the air box decided we would adopt a new button.
This button has exactly the same crown as its predecessor and was in all respects identical from a distance of 6 feet or more.
The new button was known as the Domed button as it had a higher profile than the previous flatter version.
There was no question of continuing to use the older button until one's uniform was changed. Officers all had to buy new buttons, at their own expense although the station tailor did all the airmen's. The 3 buttons on the No 1 were not too bad. It was the dozen of so on the greatcoat that cost as these were not sewn on and a tailor had to open up the lining.
Given Jacko's quote about Liz's attitude, I bet she never knew.