Shitsu_Tonka

Interested to hear what pilots think the "Overlying Control Area" is in the context of this regulation.

For example, how about the STAR?

What about during WX diversions off SID/STAR?

Shitsu_Tonka

(Whichever Woomera moved this to GA forum, you might be interested to know that this was raised because of an argument about whether RPT Airline aircraft indeed have priority in to BN / ML etc, and was designed to elicit discussion from the Airline pilots - I often wonder how you determine what gets shifted where?)

Reverseflowkeroburna

My apologies for going slightly off topic, but once we've determined the "Overlying Control Area" could somebody (ATCOs or otherwise) please explain to me the logic in MED 2 being so far down the list.

I know how I would feel about delaying 'Little Johnny' by 10min or so if it were one of my loved ones bleeding away or arresting onboard the aeromed traffic that's 5th in the sequence!

Spodman

Probly stuck here coz RPT does have priority over PVT operations, (a huge dis-incentive to buy a bizjet here), so RPT pilots couldn't give a monkeys. 'Tis the GA personages that should raise up in another 'day of inaction' to reverse this cosy arrangement.

Don't worry keroburna, if anybody is 'bleeding away' or 'arresting' the flight would be MED1 & Teflon John gets circle work.

GaryGnu

I would like to think that overlying control areas mean at least the Control Steps above an airport up to the base of Class C at FL125.
Howver, I am the first to acknowledge what I like to think is the case is often not the reality.
I often find the scheduled RPT service that I am crewing being vectored around parachute aircraft to the south west of Sydney. Funny thing is that this only seems to happen on weekends. Is there a dfferent set of rules for Mon-Fri and Sat-Sun?

Duff Man

GaryGnu

There's usually enough flexibility in the sequence on weekends for offset STAR vectors to be made up in a reduced circuit, so the net penalty is zero.

DM

rmcdonal

Is that like Charter GA? Or does it have to be Heavy Metal?

Capt Claret

Reverseflowkeroburna

If some one was bleeding away, surely the category would be MED 1, not MED 2.

I've never heard of MED category being questioned, so it's really up to the pilot.

NIMFLT

The PM has priority over all the priorities discussed here.

These priorities only apply when not all requests for the normal use of airspace can be accomodated. (as stated at the top of the list)

In normal use, it's first come first served. So an RPT jet can be delayed (sequenced) for a VFR GA lighty in the normal course of doing business, but if it was too busy the GA aircraft would have to be delayed. Of course it's quite often too busy to accommodate everyone.

bushy

How can anyone justify delaying a medical flight for ANY reason. Routine flights are NOT more important, even if they are big aeroplanes, or pollies etc.

Reverseflowkeroburna

Spod dude, if only we lived in that perfect world!!

Thanks Clarrie, I'm fairly familiar with the way the regs account for the Medical condition of the patient in determining the flights status/priority.

My point is perhaps more of a moral debate. The example I'll give is one of the more common ones.

Let's say Joe Bloggs has suffered an Infarct or some CVA. While he probably won't be in any pain and may even walk onto the aircraft in some cases, prompt delivery of the appropriate medications will restore blood flow to our good chappy's heart. This may greatly reduce the amount of heart tissue that is permanently affected, and thus his longer term quality of life. It is quite possible that our friend is not flying "MED 1." This then puts him a fair way down the pecking order. My question is this, would Joe Public want bloggs to go first, or is their Pina Colada sipping/business conference really that important???

Alternatively, think of it this way: Capt Claret and I (F.O. Verdelho) are about to depart our fine hotel following an overnight. Coming down the hall from the Presidential Suite, after visiting George Dubya for some 'extra-curricular activities' is Little Johnny. Suddenly, a couple of Ambos wheel Bloggs around the corner on a stretcher. Bloggs smiles at us as he's still fully conscious, just as the lift chimes 'I'm here!' We can't all fit in the elevator. Who would all common, decent individuals, and maybe even Johnny, allow to take the first slot???

Bushy, me thinks that your background has enabled you to both understand the question and know the answer!

SM4 Pirate

Flowker,

Maybe you're reading it wrong, MED2 has equal priority... ie, a) 1 through 5 are equal; the only ones getting in front of a MED2 are MED1 and VIP (little John and GG); GWB has no status here, thus gets no VIP status unless flying under an Oz mil clearance as a VIP. MED2's only make way for MED1s realistically; but similarly they don't get promoted in sequences they just don't get pushed back when they are MED2, like most ambo type flights without MED status.

In terms of processing a MED2, we do our best to ensure they are not unduely delayed and we offer track shortening too; but we won't move everything out of the way as we will for MED1.

Processing into the big centres is relatively transparent as the delays now-a-days are very much more evenly distributed, thanks to MAESTRO... But that's a whole other story...

Reverseflowkeroburna

Thanks SM4, but yes, I do understand that those five categories have "equal status" in the sequence. I am just of the opinion that perhaps MED 2, like MED 1, should also be above the other four in that paragraph. I also think that the average punter would be assuming that ALL aeromed traffic would take precedence in this manner. I firmly believe that is what we all would want if the patient was one of our loved ones onboard.

I think I should reiterate that, I am in no way complaining, nor dissatisfied with the manner in which any ATCOs have applied the aforementioned paragraph. There have even been occasions where I've had exceptional service on nil priority flights, including being able to maintain non-standard levels whilst the opposite direction had to change theirs.

I don't believe I'm misinterpreting the rules here, merely seeking the opinions of what other considerate individuals may think.

BrokenConrod

I recently was inbound to YBTL on a "Rules = I and Type = G" plan, having flightplanned the ILS via the SATCO waypoint that leads onto the localiser, because I wanted to check the ILS coupling of my autopilot.

Conditions were 8/8 blue.

I was initially the only aircraft on the Approach Frequency - cleard direct to SATCO.

Then an RPT turboprop turned up on the APPR Freq - and next thing I know I am being vectored through a series of S turns to allow the RPT onto the ILS first.

Seems to me that I could have easily flown straight onto the ILS and landed ahead of the RPT without messing him about at all - but NO!

Anyone know what the rules are? Didn't seem like a fair go to me - I pay my money like everyone else.

BC

Spodman

Next time you are out driving in your favourite form of road transport and see an ambulance waiting at a red light when you have a green will you stomp on the anchors and let him through? MED1 is the ambulance with the hooter going and the lights flashing. MED2 is the ambulance at the red light with the bloke in the back who is unwell/damaged but not critical.

Apollo 100

Spodman, your example of an amulance at traffic lights is not quite correct. If you have a look at the definition of Med 2 you will see that the flight may be on its way to pick up urgent medical equipment or personel for what will become a Med 1 flight. In effect it is just as time critical, if not more so because the patient has not yet received the equipment or specialist attention that they will have once on board the Med 1 flight. I often hesitate calling Med 2 because of the percieved notion that it is somehow less urgent. Pehaps the priorities in AIP need re-writing.

Reverseflowkeroburna

Apollo........Now there's an idea.

MrApproach

Broken Conrod - last time I looked Townsville was not a capital city so priorities talked about in this thread don't apply. I guess the RAAF approach controllers girlfriend was on the Dash!

BrokenConrod

Last time I looked, Townsville was the capital of the State of Nth Queensland!

BC

Reverseflowkeroburna

To further clarify Spodman's comments, and in support of Apollo's correction:

Ambulance with the lights/hooter on, going to pick up patient = MED 2

Ambulance with the lights/hooter on, going to hospital = MED 1


Now, can anyone see as to why I'm puzzled that MED 2 is not higher on the list???