RAF Harrier - Is it worth it?
Thread Starter
RAF Harrier - Is it worth it?
With defence cuts seemingly close, is the Harrier worth keeping on our inventory?
What has it achieved in conflict after the Falklands, other than hovering?
Discuss.
What has it achieved in conflict after the Falklands, other than hovering?
Discuss.
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I'll bite..
Skeleton
Whose inventory do you mean? The RAF's or the RN's? if it means the RN budgeting for it then fair enufski. But to get rid of it altogether? Not a good idea methinks. What will we do when Antony B'Liar sends the lads and lasses somewhere there is no HNS?
With defence cuts seemingly close, is the Harrier worth keeping on our inventory?
What has it achieved in conflict after the Falklands, other than hovering?
Discuss.
What has it achieved in conflict after the Falklands, other than hovering?
Discuss.
Whose inventory do you mean? The RAF's or the RN's? if it means the RN budgeting for it then fair enufski. But to get rid of it altogether? Not a good idea methinks. What will we do when Antony B'Liar sends the lads and lasses somewhere there is no HNS?
Doing a very limited job....and very, very, vulnerable to Manpads and other anti-aircraft missiles.
SASless, sometimes I sit agast at your sweeping statements. What research have you conducted to come to the conclusion of that last statement. I KNOW that you are wrong and it seems that you are obviously bored and being deliberately inflamatory. Whilst the excellent work of our RN and RAF colleagues in the GR7A is getting limited publicity, the support they are providing in very welcome to Percy sat in his dugout!
Widger,
No offense intended....just saying it like it is.
The Harrier is very limited in the mission it can accomplish when compared to other Attack Aircraft such as the Tornado, A-10, F-16,F-15E, A-6, F/A 18. With JDAM we even can include the B-1, B-2, and B-52 as well.
The Harrier had a loss rate to Manpads/Sam's double that of other similar aircraft during the Gulf Wars.
The USMC Harriers only made token sorties in Afghanistan. That is well documented in Horner's, Glosson's, and other books about those wars.
The Harrier is obsolete and far too expensive when compared to other attack aircraft.
If you limit it to the unique ability it has...vstol or vertical takeoff and landing then it has a place in the inventory. As long as full size carriers and airfields are available the Harrier is excess to need.
I realize the British have a special love of the Harrier but the reality is it is a waste of money especially during a period of tight funding. The RAF would be far better off to buy off the shelf A-10's,F-16's or F-18's for the CAS mission or deploy the Typhoon as soon as possible. It would help if the Typhoon had an operable gun system to go along with it's bomb dropping capability.
No offense intended....just saying it like it is.
The Harrier is very limited in the mission it can accomplish when compared to other Attack Aircraft such as the Tornado, A-10, F-16,F-15E, A-6, F/A 18. With JDAM we even can include the B-1, B-2, and B-52 as well.
The Harrier had a loss rate to Manpads/Sam's double that of other similar aircraft during the Gulf Wars.
The USMC Harriers only made token sorties in Afghanistan. That is well documented in Horner's, Glosson's, and other books about those wars.
The Harrier is obsolete and far too expensive when compared to other attack aircraft.
If you limit it to the unique ability it has...vstol or vertical takeoff and landing then it has a place in the inventory. As long as full size carriers and airfields are available the Harrier is excess to need.
I realize the British have a special love of the Harrier but the reality is it is a waste of money especially during a period of tight funding. The RAF would be far better off to buy off the shelf A-10's,F-16's or F-18's for the CAS mission or deploy the Typhoon as soon as possible. It would help if the Typhoon had an operable gun system to go along with it's bomb dropping capability.
SASLess, and which beautifully prepared, pool table surface would you like your F16, F18 and Typhoon to operate from then? There was a reason the Harrier was part of the NATO force in germany during the cold war and that was because it could operate from "unprepared" sites. It still is a very useful aircraft with some good ordnance and flown by well trained and very capable pilots!
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I'd love to see some of those 'off the shelf' a/c SASless mentions flying out of the same places as Harriers do in Afghanistan.
How much are a pair of F15 engines these days?
How much are a pair of F15 engines these days?
Kandahar Air Base Ops Base?
Stacker....perhaps we are talking about different Afghanistans here? Seems Haj flights operate out of there too....10,500 foot paved runway....real Harrier turf!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...dahar_afld.htm
In Afghanistan, coalition aircraft flew 24 close-air-support missions in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. They included support to coalition and Afghan troops, reconstruction activities and presence route patrols.
Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt IIs provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Jalalabad.
Seven Air Force ISR aircraft flew missions in support of operations in Afghanistan.
Air Force C-130 Hercules and C-17 Globemaster IIIs provided intratheater heavy airlift support, helping sustain operations throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the Horn of Africa. They flew 185 airlift sorties, delivered 535 tons of cargo and transported 2,490 passengers.
Coalition C-130 crews from Australia and Canada flew in support of either OIF or OEF.
On April 15 Air Force and RAF tankers flew 36 sorties and off-loaded almost 2.6 million pounds of fuel.
In Afghanistan April 15, coalition air support for Operation Mountain Lion continued. An Air Force B-52 Stratofortress and A-10s provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Jalalabad.
The A-10s successfully expended cannon rounds and rockets against enemy troops positioned on a hillside, causing them to flee the area. The A-10s also successfully struck several enemy troops out in the open with cannon rounds and rockets. The B-52 and the A-10s successfully expended general-purpose 500-pound bombs and precision guided JDAMs against a cave complex housing insurgents.
In total, coalition aircraft flew 24 close-air-support missions in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. They included support to coalition and Afghan troops, reconstruction activities and presence route patrols.
Five Air Force ISR aircraft flew missions in support of operations in Afghanistan.
Air Force C-130s and C-17s provided intratheater heavy airlift support, helping sustain operations throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the Horn of Africa. They flew 165 airlift sorties, transported 2,800 passengers and delivered 415 tons of cargo including 20 tons of troop re-supply air-dropped in Afghanistan.
Coalition C-130 crews from Canada and South Korea flew in support of either OIF or OEF.
On April 14 Air Force and RAF tankers flew 35 sorties and off-loaded almost 2.4 million pounds of fuel.
In Afghanistan April 14, Air Force A-10s provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Jalalabad during Operation Mountain Lion. The A-10s fired their cannons in two strafing passes against an enemy force in armed conflict with coalition and Afghan National forces, bringing the engagement to an end.
In total, coalition aircraft flew 26 close-air-support missions for Operation Mountain Lion and in other support missions for Operation Enduring Freedom. An Air Force B-52 and RAF Harrier GR7s provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Kandahar.
Six Air Force ISR aircraft flew missions in support of operations in Afghanistan.
Air Force C-130s and C-17s provided intratheater heavy airlift support, helping sustain operations throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the Horn of Africa. They flew 200 airlift sorties, delivered 500 tons of cargo and transported 3,700 passengers.
Coalition C-130 crews from Australia and Canada flew in support of either OIF or OEF.
On April 13 Air Force and RAF tankers flew 38 sorties and off-loaded almost 2.9 million pounds of fuel.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...dahar_afld.htm
In Afghanistan, coalition aircraft flew 24 close-air-support missions in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. They included support to coalition and Afghan troops, reconstruction activities and presence route patrols.
Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt IIs provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Jalalabad.
Seven Air Force ISR aircraft flew missions in support of operations in Afghanistan.
Air Force C-130 Hercules and C-17 Globemaster IIIs provided intratheater heavy airlift support, helping sustain operations throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the Horn of Africa. They flew 185 airlift sorties, delivered 535 tons of cargo and transported 2,490 passengers.
Coalition C-130 crews from Australia and Canada flew in support of either OIF or OEF.
On April 15 Air Force and RAF tankers flew 36 sorties and off-loaded almost 2.6 million pounds of fuel.
In Afghanistan April 15, coalition air support for Operation Mountain Lion continued. An Air Force B-52 Stratofortress and A-10s provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Jalalabad.
The A-10s successfully expended cannon rounds and rockets against enemy troops positioned on a hillside, causing them to flee the area. The A-10s also successfully struck several enemy troops out in the open with cannon rounds and rockets. The B-52 and the A-10s successfully expended general-purpose 500-pound bombs and precision guided JDAMs against a cave complex housing insurgents.
In total, coalition aircraft flew 24 close-air-support missions in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. They included support to coalition and Afghan troops, reconstruction activities and presence route patrols.
Five Air Force ISR aircraft flew missions in support of operations in Afghanistan.
Air Force C-130s and C-17s provided intratheater heavy airlift support, helping sustain operations throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the Horn of Africa. They flew 165 airlift sorties, transported 2,800 passengers and delivered 415 tons of cargo including 20 tons of troop re-supply air-dropped in Afghanistan.
Coalition C-130 crews from Canada and South Korea flew in support of either OIF or OEF.
On April 14 Air Force and RAF tankers flew 35 sorties and off-loaded almost 2.4 million pounds of fuel.
In Afghanistan April 14, Air Force A-10s provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Jalalabad during Operation Mountain Lion. The A-10s fired their cannons in two strafing passes against an enemy force in armed conflict with coalition and Afghan National forces, bringing the engagement to an end.
In total, coalition aircraft flew 26 close-air-support missions for Operation Mountain Lion and in other support missions for Operation Enduring Freedom. An Air Force B-52 and RAF Harrier GR7s provided close air support to coalition troops in contact with enemy forces near Kandahar.
Six Air Force ISR aircraft flew missions in support of operations in Afghanistan.
Air Force C-130s and C-17s provided intratheater heavy airlift support, helping sustain operations throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the Horn of Africa. They flew 200 airlift sorties, delivered 500 tons of cargo and transported 3,700 passengers.
Coalition C-130 crews from Australia and Canada flew in support of either OIF or OEF.
On April 13 Air Force and RAF tankers flew 38 sorties and off-loaded almost 2.9 million pounds of fuel.
Last edited by SASless; 11th Jul 2006 at 16:30.
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SASLess,
No offence intended, just telling it like it is:
Your theories appear to be obsolete and should be ignored.
Cutting and pasting a satellite photo is supposed to prove your point I suppose? Are you so absurdly ignorant to have not heard about the FOD issue at that airfield? And your cut and paste article which lists C130 and C17 - short field operators - actually justifies a STOVL aircraft like the Harrier. We'd love to put Tornado or Jag in there; they can't operate off that runway in its current condition. Similarly the US would love to put F16 or F18 in there; but they can't.
Please, before you post even more drivel, go and dig out some facts - preferably ones that support your argument instead of undermining it - and stop making tosh up.
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
No offence intended, just telling it like it is:
Your theories appear to be obsolete and should be ignored.
Cutting and pasting a satellite photo is supposed to prove your point I suppose? Are you so absurdly ignorant to have not heard about the FOD issue at that airfield? And your cut and paste article which lists C130 and C17 - short field operators - actually justifies a STOVL aircraft like the Harrier. We'd love to put Tornado or Jag in there; they can't operate off that runway in its current condition. Similarly the US would love to put F16 or F18 in there; but they can't.
Please, before you post even more drivel, go and dig out some facts - preferably ones that support your argument instead of undermining it - and stop making tosh up.
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
Just what was it hauled the Haj folks in and out of the airfield then?
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and how many B52's are operating out of Afganistan? Interestingly the USAF seems always to try and get rid of the A10 and replace it with F16 so pre the current unpleasentness it was being sent to the ANG!!!!!
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Originally Posted by SASless
The RAF would be far better off to buy off the shelf A-10's,F-16's or F-18's for the CAS mission or deploy the Typhoon as soon as possible.
The Harrier is very limited in the mission it can accomplish when compared to other Attack Aircraft such as the Tornado, A-10, F-16,F-15E, A-6, F/A 18.
SASLess
It seems a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing
It seems a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing
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SASless,
Having thoroughly enjoyed these posts for years, you are the first to actually prompt me to get off my a*se and start typing! Before I get reminded that this is a 'rumour' network and get banter for biting (as I have seen many others hilariously do over the years), I confess to being a little concerned that you actually believe the cr*p you're coming out with.
Quote -
"The Harrier is very limited in the mission it can accomplish when compared to other Attack Aircraft such as the Tornado, A-10, F-16,F-15E, A-6, F/A 18. With JDAM we even can include the B-1, B-2, and B-52 as well."
I would have thought that the only RAF jet to offer mixed loads, digital JRP, and integrated DAS in one, the Harrier would be ideally suited? How do you consider JDAM to be a better alternative to a combined GPS/Laser EPWII? My experience of JDAM in that theatre was of the majority being sprayed somewhere around the tgt due to dodgy GPS coords. At least the EPWIIs went where the TIALD was pointing.
Quote -
"The Harrier had a loss rate to Manpads/Sam's double that of other similar aircraft during the Gulf Wars."
Don't remember losing any of ours.
Quote -
"Seems Haj flights operate out of there too....10,500 foot paved runway....real Harrier turf!"
Didn't stop a number of them running off the end/side with shredded tyres.
Seeing as I'm quoting, here's one from a US Infantry Staff Sgt in a comms relay back to his operating base after snatching 12 Taliban from a house downtown
".....Yeah, we got the dudes. Looking a bit hot at one point - getting a lot of resistance before we went in. Just as we kicked the f**king door down, the Harriers came right down the f**cking high street - bang on time!"
".....No way!"
".....Those guys fly low man, I mean really low!......Give me a choice between an A-10 and a Harrier, I'll take the Harrier every time!"
I've known US SF teams who've got back into camp after 2-3 weeks out on patrol (having lost up to 3 of their team) go straight to Ops to thank the crews before they even go back to their accom.
Is the Harrier worth it? Ask them.
Having thoroughly enjoyed these posts for years, you are the first to actually prompt me to get off my a*se and start typing! Before I get reminded that this is a 'rumour' network and get banter for biting (as I have seen many others hilariously do over the years), I confess to being a little concerned that you actually believe the cr*p you're coming out with.
Quote -
"The Harrier is very limited in the mission it can accomplish when compared to other Attack Aircraft such as the Tornado, A-10, F-16,F-15E, A-6, F/A 18. With JDAM we even can include the B-1, B-2, and B-52 as well."
I would have thought that the only RAF jet to offer mixed loads, digital JRP, and integrated DAS in one, the Harrier would be ideally suited? How do you consider JDAM to be a better alternative to a combined GPS/Laser EPWII? My experience of JDAM in that theatre was of the majority being sprayed somewhere around the tgt due to dodgy GPS coords. At least the EPWIIs went where the TIALD was pointing.
Quote -
"The Harrier had a loss rate to Manpads/Sam's double that of other similar aircraft during the Gulf Wars."
Don't remember losing any of ours.
Quote -
"Seems Haj flights operate out of there too....10,500 foot paved runway....real Harrier turf!"
Didn't stop a number of them running off the end/side with shredded tyres.
Seeing as I'm quoting, here's one from a US Infantry Staff Sgt in a comms relay back to his operating base after snatching 12 Taliban from a house downtown
".....Yeah, we got the dudes. Looking a bit hot at one point - getting a lot of resistance before we went in. Just as we kicked the f**king door down, the Harriers came right down the f**cking high street - bang on time!"
".....No way!"
".....Those guys fly low man, I mean really low!......Give me a choice between an A-10 and a Harrier, I'll take the Harrier every time!"
I've known US SF teams who've got back into camp after 2-3 weeks out on patrol (having lost up to 3 of their team) go straight to Ops to thank the crews before they even go back to their accom.
Is the Harrier worth it? Ask them.
CVDF,
When your house is on fire....one does not question who is throwing water at it.
Whenever would a Spam use the expression "right down the high street..."?
When your house is on fire....one does not question who is throwing water at it.
Whenever would a Spam use the expression "right down the high street..."?