Class Rating Instructor Training
 

I was wondering if there is a list of training schools which offer training towards the CRI qualification. I am a CPL(A) (but not a FI) holder and the plan is to instruct on the Cessna Caravan. I have 900 hours on the Caravan plus all the other pre course qualifications.

Is there a list somewhere, or do you know where the training can be done? I've spoken to a couple of schools and been offered rather blank looks.

Any ideas?

Try Carol Cooper at Andrewsfield.

Andrewsfield Aviation

OC619

West London Aero Club at White Waltham do it.

01628 823272

What class does the caravan come under?

Ask the CAA staff examiners at Oxford for the course. They owe you a favour on the caravan anyway.

Cessna SET

The list is here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/pld%20s...ument30v30.pdf
Not all FIC providers offer the CRI option and its unlikely you will find anyone qualified to do it on the Caravan. Try ONTRACK AVIATION LIMITED

Many thanks. On the case now!

Wycombe Air Centre - it was good fun and Caroline is a great 'instructor instructor'.

:ok:

Well done Mods for being overzealous and heavy handed by deleting my thread on Private Flying offering my services FREE of CHARGE as a CRI on the other forum.

Get over it guys!

Western Air at Thruxton now doing FI and CRI training, which could be handy if you're in Wilts.

CRI
 

I did mine at On-Track at Wellesbourne and found them very good.

Why should you use the forum to advertise your service when the rest of us don't? Nothing over zealous about it from the mods, perhaps on the over zealous front you might want to look introspectively.....

I can also highly recommend OnTrack at Wellesbourne. I have done all of my Instructor and Examiner courses with them over the years.

A first class experience taught by vastly experienced people and a friendly environment. They also only do professional level courses and are not a PPL sausage factory.

Could someone give me a quick run down in layman's terms or point me in the direction of what you are allowed to do the a SEP Class Rating Instructor rating.

You may do anything other than ab-initio training and training for the night rating. You may do differences training such as turbo, retract, wobbly prop, tailwheel, SLPC, Glass, pressurisation. You may do a CRE ME and teach multi engine.

If you do an IRI course you may teach for the IMC and the IR. If you have the appropriate type ratings you may teach for the single engine turbine rating and any SPA multi engine turbine ratings.

With enough experience you may become a Class Rating Examiner and examiner for anything you hold on your licence, SEP, MEP, SET, MET etc. However if doing a CRI on a PPL you won't be able to as you need to hold or have held a professional licence.

A CRI may also do training towards a class rating, for example someone who hold a ML rating and wishes to add a SEP or SSEA or vice versa.

What sort of knowledge level should a CRI student be expected to have prior to starting the course?

Is it a case of revising your 'Trevor Thom' books from your PPL days, or should you get copies of CPL/ATPL books and reach CPL knowledge level?

If by "ML" you mean microlight then the above is incorrect.

A JAR-FCL CRI can only provide training in SEP to a person who holds a JAR-FCL licence.

If only it was that simple!!

I recomend that JAR-FCL is the first thing that should be read. Particular attention should be made to the requirements that every CRI has to meet - (experience, training and test) before being able to teach on another type or class.

Regards,

DFC

DFC,

You're wrong with the above, since the SEP rating includes privileges relating to microlights.

I have written confirmation from the CAA that a CRI can provide training on microlight aircraft within the privileges of their class rating, since SEP includes microlights. See also LASORS section F.

In summary a CRI can complete SSEA to Microlight, or Microlight to SSEA or indeed Microlight to SEP, since it is CLASS RATING instruction.

ATB,

ifitaint...

ifitaintboeing,

You are correct that in the UK, the UKCAA permits instructors who hold JAR-FCL licenses and who are qualified to teach SEP to also teach microlight provided that they have completed differences training.

The UK can permit anyone it wants to teach for national licenses and ratings. The UK currently permits national pilots with no instructor ratings to teach for the grant of an NPPL.

However, with regard to a CRI, it is not so simple when one talks about JAR-FCL training - which the SEP is.

JAR-FCL 1.375 states that the privileges of a CRI is to instruct licence holders for the issue of a type or class rating for single pilot aeroplanes.

Unfortunately, some people forget that JAR-FCL 1.005 tells us;

Therefore JAR-FCL makes it clear that the CRI is only entitled to teach SEP Class (or MEP Class) to the holder of a JAR-FCL licence.

Note that I am talking about the training for the issue of the class rating since people seeking for example to complete the 1 hour with an instructor by definition already hold the SEP and therefore a JAR-FCL licence.

In sumary, SSEA or SEP to Microlight - National Issue - differences training - CRI

SSEA to SEP - JAR-FI required (most of the training from the JAR-FI will have been done on the initial SSEA training)

Microlight to SSEA or SEP - JAR FI required

The easiest way to think of it is that any training which requires a solo element requires an FI since CRI's are not authorised to supervise student solo flights.

But don't forget what JAR-FCL says about licenses when training for JAR-FCL ratings!!

Regards,

DFC

DFC, there are so many holes in that last post that it would take a yard of concrete to try and plug them. I suggest you go back to square and understand the rules yourself.

As for:

Where on earth did you come up with that crap......

Sometimes you should read what you actually write and realise that the half the stuff you clearly make up does not come close to passing for rules.

A CRI may teach for any rating that they hold on their license or have embedded rights to such as Micro-light if they have met the relevant experience requirements. With an IRI they may even teach for the IR/IMC. This includes the various SET Class Ratings and Single Pilot Type ratings. Multi engines type ratings naturally require a CRI (ME).

LASORS.

NPPL holders teach for the microlight rating under an exemption and not by virtue of holding an instrutor rating.

CRI's can not do any ab-initio training. They can not send students solo. They can only train people who already hold the appropriate licence. Therefore if an NPPL holder with microlight rating approached a CRI with a view to obtaining a JAR-FCL licence with SEP the CRI would not be able to train them.

A CRI(MEP) with a valid SEP rating can not automatically teach for the SEP Class as you claim. They need to comply with the requirements in JAR-FCL with regard to experience, training and test first.

Regards,

DFC

At no point did I say a CRI (ME) could teach for an SE. You made that up.

A CRI may teach the holder of an NPPL SSEA to fly microlights and add the ML class to the NPPL. There is no solo element. The holder of an NPPL with ML may be trained by a CRI to add a SSEA. There is no solo element.

Nobody mentioned a CRI converting an NPPL to a JAA FCL license.

What you going to make up now to support your argument?

Did I..........?

---------------

Did you not?............

Just remind me what licence you can add an SEP to if you are an NPPL with microlight rating?

Please read JAR-FCL, LASORS and the requirements including for example solo training that must be completed to get an SEP from an SSEA.

Regards,

DFC

LOL, that is the most breathtaking example of cutting and pasting to make your point I have seen. I suggest reading and using all off what I wrote in context.

You have surpassed yourself this time DFC.

DFC seems to be trying to make a point about NPPL holders and adding an SEP with a CRI training - which of course you can't do, it would be an SSEA. All of which is a total red herring to the original question as nobody is trying to add an SEP to a NPPL from what I read of the debate.

The main thing a CRI can't do is if the student involved wanted a JAR-PPL from an NPPL he/she would have to engage the services of an FI, don't think anyone is disputing that.

Before I became an FI, I was a CRI and successfully trained numerous NPPL microlighters for their SSEA ratings and also a lot of people renewing SEP ratings on lifetime PPLs - all worked out fine.

I think the CRI is a great rating as long as people holding it and training with it know their limitations (it is only gained with minimum training) and are working in a supportive environment. I work with other CRIs now, and for example I know if they get a student for a rating that really needs a lot of work on core flying skills (landings for example), they might pass him/her over to an FI for a couple of hours brush up then continue on. All quite sensible and pragmatic.

Amen to that!

With regard to the SEP I was simply pointing out that someone was wrong to say;

Regards,

DFC

Yes DFC, you have proven that your pedantry is legendary. What I should have said is SSEA rather than SEP. I bow to your worshipful excellence.....:p:p:p:p

Sorry Bose, I did not quote you in full. Here is the full quote;

I take your point that what you intended to say was "SSEA or SSEA or vice versa"

:D:D

Regards,

DFC

Once upon a time, in fact until the 30th June this year, on a UK NPPL the SEP class rating existed. It then became a requirement for all NPPL holders to go through a paperwork exercise and have SSEA with a rolling 2 year period.

There are many people out there who had NPPL licenses and had an SEP rating added to them after holding a Microlight rating and vice versa and all the ealry ones were issued by the NPPL Group/CAA with and SEP rating not an SSEA rating.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Can a CRI teach aerobatics? If so, do they have to have any additional qualifications or training?

Has anybody completed a CRI rating with BCFT at Bournemouth?

Many Thanks

I'm going to dredge up this ancient thread rather than start a new one. I'm doing a CRI course myself shortly, and prior to that have been wading through the regulations to try and get a clear handle on what a CRI can, and can't, do. I've come up with the following list (supported by another 8 pages of notes and references I've not posted here). I'd be grateful for any confirmation, disagreement, or comments on any of it...



What can be done

• To get a CRI you need either a PPL or higher licence with at-least 300hrs including 30hrs on class.
• A CRI may carry out instruction for recurrency, familiarisation, or differences training.
• A CRI can be paid to instruct in a joint or sole owned UK PtF, UK CofA or EASA aeroplane. In a permit aeroplane, any subsequent examination must be unpaid. The person being taught, unless the aeroplane is certified for public transport, must be an owner of the aeroplane being flown.
• If the aeroplane is joint owned and has an EASA CofA, the previous maintenance inspection must have been signed for by a licenced engineer, with no subsequent pilot maintenance.
• The CRI can fly the biennial flight with an instructor required for JAR PPL(SEP), NPPL(M) or NPPL(SSEA)
• The CRI can teach for differences training for any of tailwheel, VP/CS, retract, turbo/supercharged engines, pressurisation, EFIS, single-lever power – so long as they’ve completed this training themselves.

The regulations do not (appear to) specifically state the following, but they seem reasonable extrapolations

• A CRI can instruct for transfer between NPPL(SSEA) and NPPL(M), in either direction, but a separate examiner will be needed for the NPPL(SSEA) skill test, and the CRI could not authorise any solo flight before issue of their NPPL(SSEA)/
• A CRI with appropriate experience and differences training could train for the 3-axis/flexwing differences training on microlights in either direction.
• A CRI(SPA/SEP) could provide a ME-only pilot with the necessary instruction to obtain/return SEP currency.

Questions for which I can’t seem to find answers:

• Does a CRI need a CPL to get paid? Presumably they do, but the regulations seem to imply the opposite.
• Can a CRI teach aerobatics?

G

Quick answers to your questions.

See http://www.nationalprivatepilotslice...20REV%2008.pdf

This specifically mentions CRIs and what they are entitled to do towards NPPLs.

Correct. This is in LASORS Section H0:

"Holders of JAR-FCL licences which contain appropriate Instructor Ratings (and Examiner Authorisations) may exercise the privileges of the ratings/authorisations included in their licences on Microlight aeroplanes
and SLMG’s but shall first undertake any necessary differences training."

Correct. You will be training a licence holder towards the SEP Class Rating.

Yes, since it is commercial activity.

Yes.

HTH.

ifitaint...

Until 8 April 2012, anyone can teach aerobatics without needing to hold an instructor rating of any kind. This has been done to death on a number of occasions on this forum.

How good someone who has had 3hrs training is at doing all those things is another debate though.

ifitaintBoeing - thank you - that document is one I'd not tracked down, and clarifies things massively.

blagger - quite. One hopes that the proof of the pudding is in the CRI skill test; for myself I'm willing to be tested and if I'm not up to it, retrain or give up - and then take advice from much more experienced instructors wherever it's available. What the general success/pass/fail rate, particularly from 300hr PPLs (about the point in my flying career where I made my greatest every f**k up in the air) however, I have no idea.

Billiebob - Interesting, since I gather that the FI(R)/FI ratings contain a "no aerobatics" restriction don't they? [I'm not an FI, and would not consider myself competent to teach aerobatics even if I was - I just about maintain enough currency to fly basic manoeuvres and get myself out of trouble, so am purely interested.]

G

The no aeros FI restriction has always been a big anomaly - I don't know whether there has ever been an incident / investigation where an FI has been teaching aeros who hasn't had the restriction removed?

Genghis - don't get me wrong, I have flown with a number of CRIs who are very capable. Equally I've flown with a number who aren't even up to PPL test standard. I think the key is the attitude of the individual - someone who keeps their skills fresh, keeps up to date with legislation, knows their limitations and learns from / is supported by more experienced instructors etc.. will be fine.

Ah well, we can all think of safety regulations that seem borne out of imagination rather than reality. I'd start with yellow jackets.

I think that any aviator, and any instructor, should try to continuously seek mentoring and push themselves towards best practice. We all know people who do this superbly (I used to fly a lot with the chap who is now CAA's Chief Test Pilot - he would insist on a full lessons-learned debrief from every flight, no matter how trivial, and I'll bet he still does), and we all know people who - well - don't: who regard their last skill test as a temporary abberation and they can slip back into more relaxed habits now.

I don't think that any branch of pilot has a monopoly on either mode of behaviour - but I can see why a PPL-only CRI should be a matter for concern. Hopefully the courses, skills tests and the periodic revalidations, will work to counter that, in the same way that line checks and company standards should for full time professional aviators.

G

Unfortunately though a CRI can revalidate by experience and hence go from the initial test without ever flying with an FIE/FIC again! I think every other time should be a test like the FI rating.

Blagger, then the changes afoot for CRIs under EASA won't disappoint you!

Genghis, you will see that CRI Seminars are now available for exactly the reasons you describe. Whilst they are not a requirement, they are an excellent way to keep up to date with the many changes we are facing.

ifitaint

Just an aside - my shiny new CRI rating, having now arrived, does not include the "no aerobatics" phrase I've seen on the licences of pilots with the FI / FI(R) rating.

G