FI Shortage
 

Hello All,
Other times that the salary for FIs have been discussed on PPRuNe, it seeemed as though the new PPL FI was hourly paid and did well to make 12K p.a.
Is this beginning to change? Perhaps the hiring by airlines is finally impacting the FI market. I heard today that Cabair needs a shed load of FIs - all categories and experience levels, UK and international locations. They apparently are offering 100% sponsored FIC courses, incentives for rated FIs to join and assistance with getting into an airline career after contract. Even the dreaded winter on flight pay only is being addressed!
It does seem as though this only reaches the guys who instruct on their way to the airlines - I wonder what its going to take to get the package right for career trainers who have families to keep. Anybody see any signs that T&Cs are getting better for this group too?
TT

About time they realised they're not going to keep instructors on the pay system they've been operating. Personally I would sooner instruct in a flying club environment than one such as Cabair's but it's horses for courses innit.

VFE.

There is a chronic shortage of FI's at the moment, especially those who can teach further stuff such as IMC, Aero's etc.

Is it having an affect on salaries? Not yet, but it will!

Thread in the other place says that Cabair Elstree has closed due to lack of instructors.
AOPA's latest edition of GA magazine also reports the instructor situation as dire.

some places in US is offering free housing for their FI if you work for them, and some other places put you on salary instead of flight per hour.

FI Shortage
 

I checked and Elstree is struggling for FIs but open. It seems Cabair is a victim of its own success at getting FIs a route into the airlines - you'd think that would ensure a steady supply of FIs for them.
I liked the comment about preferring to work in a club environment - I too preferred to instruct when the emphasis was on having fun - didn't like club politics though!
I wonder if guys who have gone to the airlines will be a good source of part-timers?
TT

anyone know what sort of package they offer?

They have been after instructors for months at Denham and Elstree - they called me often enough after I left for pastures new.

Do not really know what the answer is apart from offering salaried positions for a couple of career instructors to help keep the ship afloat at those airfields. If you attract the airline wannabe's then you're always going to be keeping the business on the edge surely?

All that aside, I think this is another clear sign that the aviation industry has really started to pick up it's feet, which can only be a good thing for all pilots, no matter where they stand on their respective career ladders. :)

I predict a time soon when unrestricted PPL instructors will be earning more money than some of the low cost carrier FO's in their first terms - I already do and I'm not even proper full time!

VFE.

Tell me about it?
 

Tiller Torquer,
Thanks for the info...im interested in the 100% sponsored FIC courses...Do u have any specific information about this? I am intersted in doing the course if I get sponsorship?
Thanks for any responses.

Check FI Course post
 

Hi Adverse Bump,
Check the other thread called 'FI Course'. Gives you some idea on the retaining cost and per hour rates.

Cabair info
 

Hi Vic1
I think that Derek Edwards on 0208 236 2400 will give you the latest - but I think there's a range of options available depending on how long you see yourself being an FI. I got the impression that some of the details of the new package are still being worked out but you've nothing to lose by starting the ball rolling.
Hope it works out for you
TT

Going back to the origional thread, the shortage of instructors is really begining to become noticable. At the club im at, the last instructor has just left for an airline job, leaving the place hung out to dry really, in the peak season!
To be honest though the place is run by complete to****rs with no idea how to run a flight school, let alone retain instructors! So they have brought the mess they are in on by themselves!! HOWEVER, this is fantastic news if you look at it closely....
These types of c***s who run schools and think they can pay instructors pitance and treat them like crap are now paying the price for this!! They will sink in to the ground and so they should!!!
Now on the other side of the coin, more attractive packages for FI' s are now being introduced by good well managed schools which is going to generally improve the conditions for instructors accross the board. The tide has turned now I think and the time for the FI to be recognised as an important assest in the flying world is showing through. Long may conditions improve. Something had to give and I think it has.

A note for school managers and CFI's reading this thread.

You know exactly what is happening in the UK training/club flying industry and many are facing increasingly difficult staffing problems.

You probably have noticed the huge traffic we have in ads from recruitment agencies and airlines over the last few years. There are places where these guys can advertise far more cheaply than here. You have quotes from or use those sites so why take the PPRuNe route?

The reason is entirely hard nosed and commercial - there are too many jobs compared to the numbers of qualified, competent pilots actively searching for work on those sites.

PPRuNe, however, is where everyone voluntarily comes every day. This is an especially important point when you consider how qualified instructors consistently express how undervalued they feel. You'll see the same airlines and agencies advertising here year after year because the psychology is entirely turned on its head and it works. It works and it happens this way:

The mountain has come to Mohammed rather than the supplicant scanning the jobsites and it effectively prompts those not presently looking for a change to apply. Opening up a whole new and huge window to applicants who never normally see your cheaper ads works. If you lose just 3 hours of training turnover that's the ad that could have prevented the situation happening in the first place.

We don't actually care whether you advertise or not. PPRuNe appears with or without ads and the years without were far simpler. No one gets any commission and the money goes back into expanding the site.

At different times some of you will remember this post. You know folks are here more times in an hour than the job sites see in a week. There is an important and proven advantage in approaching potential employees where they chose to be everyday rather than expecting them to come looking for you. Is it a shift in the way you're used to thinking? Yep, but every page you read is topped with ads from those who've realised folks feel flattered when it's you that makes all the effort to reach them. People feel entirely differently if they are effectively being headhunted.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

An innocent question
 

As a member of a flying club that is short of instructors.... anyone know of a couple who would be interested in some part-time work at a pleasant airfield in the West Midlands?

Could you please email me details of the school and job?? I may be available part time in a couple of months.

Regards

It is certainly evident that there is a shortage.

I hope it lasts... but my SpidySense is tingling. House prices are starting to drop, interest rates bite, bond markets panic and postponing the PPL or doing less hours this year is one of the first things people do to cut back.

Or, it could be that with the baby boomers all retiring and cashing those fat 25% tax free lump sums there will be a queue of people at the school doors wanting courses and their own aircraft.

Both equally possible.

WWW

please see similar threads

Newly qualified FI job opportunities.
 

Ok, with this shortage of flight instructors, how easy would it be to get a FI job when you have just qualified from flight school with no instructing experience? I.e CPL/SE/ME with FI rating and 250 hours TT, but no Instrument rating :confused:

I am contemplating instructing before I head for the airlines/corporate world as I genuinely like to teach. So I may forego the Instrument rating in favour of the FI rating. Then add the IR when I can afford it later on. But I would hope instructor positions wouldn't be pitched too highly in terms of experience requirements. After all, I would be just starting out.

Well I know of 2 schools who offered 2 individuals a job before they had even qualified, and both are low hr'd guys

D.

Ok, does anyone know any flight schools who have a sponsor program for obtaining the instructor rating with them and then landing a job?

:sad:When I sat my commercial flight test, the examiner said to keep up my instructor rating to keep contact between airline and flying club, but unfortunately the CAA makes this almost impossible now. I would have to jump through numerous hoops, financial and training wise to re-validate, when all I should need is half a day with an examiner.

See Cabair have an advert up the top of the main forums page now asking for instructors. Nice to see PPT's suggestion being implimented!

VFE.

It's actually a very simple psychological hurdle for them to have leapt mate,

Having advertised here for students over many years the big, residential schools know that public access machines are locked into PPRuNe - it's right in front of their eyes. I've found this at every school I've visited. In truth the place we are weakest is within the FBO/Bizjet world as I pass through and inspect the bookmarks:}:}

It's folks like those at Nottingham's Truman that made the leap of faith last year and included an intructor ad as part of their general promotion. They paved the way.

Rob

Try with Sabena Flight Academy. www.sfa.be Good luck!

I work shifts and would happily do a sponsored FI course in return for my services to a particular club. Anybody know of any clubs oooopppp north doing that?

I've been working for the airlines for several years now, and always had good intentions to keep up instructing, which ever materialzed. To be honest I decided not to, as especially after 9/11 I thought the last thing FIs at a local club would want is an off-duty airline pilot to come along, take some of their work, when they were looking at a long future in a C152. I know I would have felt frustrated in their position.

However reading these posts it looks like times are a-changing and the part-time instructor can work without upsetting too many people. Is it worth revalidating my FI rating? Is most of the work around ab-initio PPL stuff, or is it the qualified pilot looking to add ratings? Also where is the pleasant airfield in the West Midlands?

regards

AVCP
(from the West Midlands!)

FI shortage not just UK
 

Don't know if it is a sign of the industry taking a leap forward but it does seem like a significant amount of instructors have been sucked into "proper" jobs all over the place (Sweden for example). I'm starting my FI course two weeks from now and the school I'll be working at eventually already has students planned for me! :ooh:
I'd be the first in line for a career in instructing if they could provide a decent salary - got the house full of kids and instructing does bring you home each night (almost) but I'm worried about eating crumbs, specially come winter...
Just out of curiosity, how many would accept instructing as a career instead of 6-8 short legs per day to and from the same locations? Is the "proper" flying job really more fun, or is it just the pay?

VFE

... and to think you suspected me of "sniffing the bostik" when I predicted this scenario a little less than a year ago! :p

Without thread wandering.....

People that are interested in becoming Flying Instructors to build hours for airlines, go and do it!! I did - well worth it

and when the time comes to line training, lots of the training captains are ex-flying instructors themselves and you will earn alot of respect from them!!

Good luck!!!

In the airline industry you are restricted to 900hours per year, does instructing eat into this 900 hours as it is for reimbursment or does it not restrict your airline hours? Are the airlines happy for you to have this side job?

Yes, 900 hours limit. (As my lot send us around in taxis all over the place, there is very little chance of getting near 900hours, more like 500-600)
Yes, paid instruction counts for flight time limitations. (Unpaid beow 1600kg doesn't, I think).
Yes, airlines do allow it, usually just ask the fleet manager or chief pilot for permission.

Cabair
 

Cabair FI option sounds interesting provided it is not just another marketing campaing. :mad: Has anyone tried it?
I couldn't see requirement for number of hours flown or qualifications.
You would expect them to specify the type of pilot they are looking for?

It is not often I am happy to admit being wrong Blacknight! :)

VFE.

Cabair Sponsorship
 

All very well to offer - but do they have the resources to do the FI training? Not at the moment I believe!

The CAA now frown on paid instructing during your days off or certainly the FOI that my company deals with certainly has taken a firm stance on the matter. It is a clear sign of how unimportant the CAA see the development of G/A in this country and with the Multi Pilot commercial licence on the horizon, it is clear that the CAA now see that G/A plays no part in the development of our industry as a whole.... How wrong can they be?

As time goes on I have been requested to jump through one hoop and then another as dictated by the CAA and now I am forced to instruct for free - which does not bother me personally but there will be some out there who would like/need the money! Paid instruction on a day off is no longer counted, as a day off which is ridiculous! I find instructing falls into the category of being a pastime and not a job or else I why would I be doing it my own time. If the CAA are so worried that I may tire myself out whilst instructing then why can I still be (for example) a adventure sports instructor on my days off and tire myself out doing all manner of lively activities yet I can't do a single trip in a light piston single? It is just ridiculous! Do the CAA actually think that we will be willing to flog ourselves to death on our days off so that we start work absolutely knackered... or perhaps those in the CAA that have flown have forgotten the responsibilities that are placed upon me when I sign the skippers acceptance at my 'day job'. I am certainly not going to risk loosing my little green book for being too tired due to instructing when I am on a day off!

Park in the Belgrano and switch modes - why should GA be developed?

Effectively, what proportion of any of the last ten years of CPL/ATPLs spent any time in GA?

Is there a case to be made that as the vast, vast majority of pro pilots trained will go into an airline flight deck farting around with pretending to be a self briefing, route planning, met gathering single handed IFR pilot a completely invalid and expensive exercise?

A one arm Florida suntan hour building doesn't count as developing UK GA.

Pro flying or qualifying for it is totally and utterly divorced from GA. The fact is that airline guys like me with a foot in both camps are complete freaks and statistical anomalies in the CAA's eyes - and they are right.

Anyone who works in a significantly sized UK airline knows that the guy who flies anything, anything at all, outside of work forms the tiniest of minorities.

Lets train for reality not how we wish it was. That means a different track for PPL/IMC/IR GA CPL versus what the rest of us do.

You'd never accept an astonomer as also being an astrologer as anything other than a joke about a dyslexic but that's exactly what Issac Newton was if you actually read his works rather than revised and respectful history. He saw them as part and parcel of the same thing. It's now impossible to take someone seriously if they claim to be both.

GA doesn't do anything in their eyes and it's perfectly understandable. The numbers do not lie. There are very few GA savvy blokes there and they aren't in sexy departments. Meanwhile the Jumbolina accident report put paid to any flight ops inspector loudly encouraging us to put time back into training. The liability effect, legal or career wise made it a non starter even at companies where you fly nowhere near 900 hours. End Ex.

Rob

Why should the CAA care about GA? How about the fact that the vast majority of a/c they are responsible for fall under the category of a "GA machine."

Airliners make up a very small proprtion of the Bitish "fleet" and anyone who thinks that your average Boeing or AIrbus is "sexy" needs their head examining!

If this is the case (as it seems to be) then that is a very sad state of affairs.

Having the odd airline jockey do some part time Instructing can only be a good thing. I like to think of all of us as part of a community of like-minded individuals. I couldn't care less what someone flies, if they are an enthusiast and do what they say, then they are welcome.

A pity this attitude doesn't seem to extend to our regulators or management, flying is changing from the exciting career it once was to a grind and the more I think about it, the happier I am that I have left the airline world behind me.

Based on current demand for PPL, would your average club be able to afford to give more wages to its instructors? Pay more to achieve better retention might be feasible, but is it affordable?

How many of your airline colleagues spent time as an instructor... A sizable proportion and not a minority and asking new F/Os that have just joined is unfair since the self-improver route no longer exists.

With the self-improver route now gone and with modular trained pilots now being able to walk into a job after a few hundred hours, there is no need for new guys to grab a FI rating and built their experience. End result is that flying clubs loose business, customers get brassed off and in the worst case flying clubs close and people loose jobs.

Not quite... remember that to start your ATPL exams on a modular course who need a PPL and a 100 hours and this is where the local flying club comes into play. There is no point getting FTOs to advertise for instructors since there is simply not enough out there. At my flying club there are no full time instructors... just airline chaps doing their bit for G/A. The PPL industry will fall flat on its face if airline pilots who wish to instruct are restricted from doing so.

Unfortunately true since outside that grey building... is a large world that they are sadly not in touch with!

I was in Jerez last week with BM Aviation. They were looking for instructors there and I had to point out their requirements are wrong - they should be looking for instructors with criminal records - they can't move on to the airlines!