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IMC in uncontrolled airspace.
A quick question.
How do you fly IFR in IMC conditions in uncontrolled airspace. Who provides the seperation. When i do my imc rating will I be able to take off through the cloud at my airfield in uncontrolled airspace? ------------------ He who smiles when the sh** hits the fan has found someone else to blame! |
TFG
You don't have to have any cover outside controlled airspace but it would be prudent to try and obtain a service from someone even if only F.I.S. It IS a big sky yes, but the thought of someone else coming your way in that nice fluffy cloud is quite scary! Personally (and professionally) I always upgrade to R.I.S whenever the need to fly I.M.C arises. Happy Landings :): JWF |
Does the word Quadrantal mean anything to you...perchance?
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RC..does the phrase "got to get to it and might pass somebody else's on the way" mean anything to YOU?
AND...(whilst rabbiting here)was cruising south eastish, down the East side of BHX last August, radar information service, 3500 (odd plus 5) VFR. Was advised by Brum of unidentified aircraft, 12 o clock, reciprocal heading, indicating 3500 (odd plus 5), squawking VFR. When we eventually spotted it we had to pitch down "for noise abatement" (as the joke says). Quadrantal - great idea, but everybody should join in. ------------------ Hunting is bad!! Support the right to arm Bears!! |
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And what about if someones behind you but going faster?
The quadrantal rule is a good basis but I don't trust it on its own. |
Once again I must show my lack of knowledge..
What is a 'Quadrantal'? Also, presumably in IMC conditions you must be on a IFR flight plan. If not, should you not remain VFR and clear of clouds? Being an FAA type, I don't know much about the legendary IMC rating. Reading this thread I get the impression that an IMC 'rating' allows you to blast through the clouds without talking to anyone. If this is true, thats the best reason I've ever heard for getting rid of it! |
Nimbus,
A 'quadrantal' is a cruising level based upon 500 ft separation and on 1013/29.92 . Hence it is basically similar to a semi-circular cruising level (except that there are 4 quadrants rather than 2 sectors), but because our UK GA traffic often flies around above our low transition altitude (3000 to 6000 ft depending upon where you are!), IFR traffic above 3000 ft amsl must fly on 1013 and fly at an appropriate cruising level. So, for example, if you're flying on 120 deg you need to be at FL35 or 55 or 75 etc., not at an altitude based on the local 'altimeter' as you would in the US. Although there is no actual legal requirement to talk to anyone in IMC, it would be plain daft not to. So if not under Radar Control, you take either Radar Advisory Service (only available under IFR) or Radar Information Service; the main difference between RAS and RIS being that under RAS the radar unit will attempt to provide the required IFR separation from other traffic, whereas under RIS you will be told of other traffic nearby and it's then up to you to manoeuvre (or maneuver!) appropriately. Why would anyone want RIS under IFR? Because to provide IFR separation to the extent which the ATC unit is required to can involve extensive vectoring; pilots who can 'walk and chew gum at the same time' or who can fly and think at the same time under IFR often prefer just to take their own avoidance action based upon the situational awareness provided by the radar unit. You might be quite happy with "Traffic left at 10 o'clock 2 miles, heading away" under RIS and choose not change your heading, but under RAS the controller would have had to have vectored you earlier to provide greater separation! Very simplistically, the IMC Rating is a basic instrument rating dsigned to equip UK pilots to cope with flight in IMC, but it is not the same as the Instrument Rating which in the UK requires far greater levels of ground and flying training plus testing in a comprehensively-equipped aircraft (and is much, much more expensive to obtain!). The IMC Rating has more restrictive take-off minima and recommended landing minima than an IR and it does NOT permit flight in Class A airspace. So if there's a layer of stratus with poor visibility underneath, rather than scrape around in marginal VFR underneath, with an IMC Rating you can get a radar service and climb to VFR on top, cruise to your destination, letting down again with a radar service to fly an ILS or GCA down to a 500 ft QFE DH or an NDB to 600 ft MDH (higher if the procedure minima dictate). Used within its limitations for the purpose intended, the IMC Rating is a very good rating for the average UK private pilot to obtain, but it is not a substitute for the PPL/IR. Also, if you're just going from A to B (remaining outside controlled airspace), even if you think that you'll need to fly in a bit of IMC en-route (at which point you'll be flying IFR), you don't need to file any sort of flight plan in the UK! No flight plan needed just to climb up through a bit of cloud to VMC on top!! [This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 28 January 2001).] |
NIMBUS - also you may want to note that you do NOT need to file a plan to fly IFR UNLESS you are going to fly in CONTROLLED airspace.
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In Canada we have vast areas of uncontrolled airspace. IFR traffic monitor 126.7 MHz and make position reports over all navaids, before changing altitudes, and any other time that it would be sensible to tell other traffic and/or ground stations where you are. We're required to announce intentions on 126.7 and on the aerodrome frequency five minutes (or earlier, the approach plates tell you), prior to starting the approach.
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BEagle,
So a 'quadrantal' is just a fancy name for recommended cruising altitude? Thanks for the lesson. Again you educate a dumb Yank (actually, a dumb mick living in the US!) I'm still a little confused. Seems like the IMC rating allows you to fly in IFR conditions without a flight plan? This sounds very dodgy to me. Even if the IMC rated hero sticks to his preferred altitude, is he/she not taking big risk? What happens if someone on an IFR plan is assigned a conflicting altitude by ATC?, or when he is coming down through the clouds? Foxmouth, I hope you're wrong! Do you mean simulated IFR in VFR conditions? I thought regulations require that you remain clear of clouds unless on a flight plan. The idea of somebody flying along in clouds when nobody knows hes there kind of scares me! |
Nimbus, et al - there is a difference between LAW and INTELLIGENCE.
If the airspace is NOT controlled then you can do what you like in it - by definition. It may not be a very good idea, indeed it may be bloody stupid, but what is legal and what you do may be completely different. It's a bit like flying a Saratoga on a hazy, pitch dark night across water to an island off the coast somewhere - without an instrument rating (or sufficient instrument training). It's not illegal - but it proved to be deadly for some....it all comes down to airmanship. ------------------ Hunting is bad!! Support the right to arm Bears!! |
Nimbus - I appreciate that, to anyone brought up under the FAA system, the freedom of flight without a Flight Plan may seem utterly alien, but that's the way it is in the UK. No-one would be stupid enough to fly in IMC without some sort of radar service, I hope, Flight Information Service is NOT a suitable alternative in IMC, in my view, because in the UK you may not be talking to someone who can see you on the screen. The selection of the appropriate type of service is taught to all PPL students (which makes re-training those who learned to fly at a US flight school important) and is the pilot's choice. It is important only to request the type of service which you actually need; there was a change in the rules a few years ago which meant that those used to off-airways VOR crawls in VFR for navigation ("Err, this is Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, PA28 from Boggsville to Sunnyplace, routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI, request Radar Advisory Service") will now only be given a RAS if they're under IFR. This was to stop ATC controller overload when people who should have been flying VFR were expecting an IFR radar separation to be provided for them. Nowadays such folk would be asked "Are you flying IFR?" Since most don't know the difference between IMC and IFR, they will usually reply "Negative" and will then be told that RAS is not available. It really is very simple, but it requires good airmanship.
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Hi BEagle,
Amazing differences between FAA and CAA! I guess the RIS then, is the same as optional VFR 'flight-following' in the US, but is, or was, also intended as a service to 'almost-but-not-quite' IFR flights? Bear Cub, Just watched a program about JFK Jr. Seems like he was actually a very careful pilot who never made a mistake. Very methodical and above average in skills. In short a gifted, natural airman! :rolleyes: I guess you were talking about someone else :) :) |
A call to all instructors here.
I do a lot of IMC training at an airfield where the approaches and the IAF are NOT in controlled airspace and the airfield does not have radar. This is the case at many fields in the UK, so you find yourself bumbling around with the screens up, teaching, often in poor vis or even in IMC when someone calls up to track via the beacon VFR. The controller cannot refuse them so suddenly you need eyes in the back of your head. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif The call to instructors:- well please do not teach students to transit IF recovery lanes just because it is a straight line on their plog. I go http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif if my student does this and then does not request a ATC clearance. From their point of view it is bad airmanship and they do not want to hit an IFR training Seneca on the ILS with its screens up. |
How precisely do you get an ATC Clearance for a VFR transit outside controlled airspace? Or track a beacon in IMC under VFR?
[This message has been edited by Noggin (edited 29 January 2001).] |
No such thing as an ATC clearance outside controlled airspace - butI suspect that was your point anyway!!
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I think the UK system works very well as evidenced by the lack of mid air collisions and the lack of a statistically significant higher incidence of TCAS warnings in UK airspace.
Obviously the whole thing rather relies on airmanship. I have spent many hours over the least year of two in IMC without radar or procesural ATC control. This is never something which is done lightly. However, in the UK if you earn by the hour as a FI then the typical weather almost impells you to fly uncontrolled IMC in many parts of the country. By having a sensible pre-planned entry and exit from IMC conditions, by observing quadrantal rules and making blind transmissions over beacons one can operate with a reasonable degree of safety. In the South East of England this probably would not be the case. However much of the UK is pretty sparse (mid Wales in my case). The military can more or less be gauranteed to be mowing the lawn at the weekends these days. "Proper" IFR traffic will have ATC seperation from you as well as possibly TCAS. I have actually done it one several occassions with only a funtioning VOR receiver and transponder. Thats not much to go on and a lot of OBS twiddling is required. However, if you set yourself some rules and plan plan plan before the sortie then it can be doen safely. With regard to the wider issue of the IMC. This is a really great example of the UK common sense approach. Is it better to be scud running in poor viz or is it better to be up there way above MSA in the clear blue? I know personally of two people killed by running just below a cloudbase into cummulo granitas... You donīt need the demands of the full blown UK IRT to fly perfectly safely down an ILS or VOR/DME approach to, say, 650ft QFE. I see new students every week able to fly perfectly safe ILSīs down to 400ft QFE with only half an hours instruction. Long live the IMC rating. WWW |
The point of flying above in the blue is well made, if you are going on top you need to get up/down through, so you need to have an IMC or IR rating to fly ABOVE the clouds if it is solid below!
[This message has been edited by foxmoth (edited 30 January 2001).] |
WWW,
Sounds like the big sky theory to me. Maybe it would work in the UK, but I'd hate to try it anywhere in the US! Lots of uncontrolled space, but lots of traffic, too! I'm still not comfortable with the idea of an IMC free-for-all! |
Hi Nimbus,
"big sky theory" ? You lucky man. You should try flying round the north west of London, where thanks to our great country's aviation services (I laugh) you are funneled through a busy 8 mile gap between two control zones, below a ceiling of 2500'... with no radar services available to GA. Welcome to the small skies!! OK on a reasonable VFR day (?) but try doing it IFR. Personally I don't do the lottery so doing this now and again makes up for my lack of gambling... Still, GA don't pay for radar services (yet) in UK and I only pay 40% tax, so I shouldn't grumble. |
Well it IS a big sky. Who the hell else is going to be stooging around Mid Wales airspace at a weekend at 5000ft without IFR seperation or Radar? I have taken far greater risks performing far more routine flying training functions.
As always, the simple answer is AIRMANSHIP. It makes all the difference to any flying activity. Cheers, WWW |
WWW!
Big Sky? Never thought I'd see you making that comment! You may be doing it, but all it takes is just one more guy thinking the same and the risk goes up. Personally, I see 'airmanship' and flying IMC with no plan as opposites! Make a position report over a beacon at the same time someone is talking to ATC, changing frequencies, etc, and who will hear it? The 'see-and-avoid' can't work in a cloud, so everyone is flying blind! Maybe I'm not a 'real' pilot! :) |
NIMBUS
I want to point out just one or two problems with operating IMC in uncontrolled airspace in FAA jurisdiction. First, you may well be able to get up there but how do you get down? Unless you fly out of it at a level altitude you have to descend or climb. More often than not a climb will put you in controlled airspace for which you need a clearance and, in order to descend to a civil airdrome you must use an approach contained issued under Part 97, which puts you back in controlled airspace. The other option, descending without an approach procedure to a field somewhere brings me to number two. When the FAA hears of this brail approach method they would likely drop their "careless and reckless endangerment" trump card on your certificate. A bad thing. The above does not apply to military unless they want, so are not considerd here. Under very predictable and controlled conditions you would be in no more danger than with an IFR flight plan in controlled airspace but, do you have that control and predictiblity? not for my money. |
Yeh. Some of us call it Russian roulette.
A few year's ago I bought a VFR only taildragger for a change. With it, I couldn't get there or I couldn't get back. That's British weather for you. Now I know why these a/c only do 50 hours pa, year in year out. IMC rating is essential if you want to get around and cannot justify several weeks of ground school and several Ģ000s for an IR. Just wish ATC was more liberal with the RASs. My brain is too small to make an instant picture from a RIS. ------------------ Y-B |
Your NOT SEPARATED by anybody - make as much use of RIS/RAS as you can!!!!!
------------------ Kit |
Vlift,
I think we're in agreement, but I'm not sure? My opinion is that operating in IMC without being on a filed flight plan is nuts. The UK IMC rating is good for climbing through a thin layer to VFR on top, or for getting down through a thin layer to an approach in marginal VFR conditions. Any time you're in a cloud, you're both blind and invisible. Not being in contact with someone who can see you, and others, on radar makes it a very risky proposition, which, for me, at any rate, is not worth it. Yogi, The IMC rating is cheaper, but using it to fly IMC comprimises safety. Its' tough, I know, to get the money for a full IFR ticket, but where should you put your priorities, safety or cost? |
IMC flight without radar happens all the time in the UK without incident.
I have had much closer shaves performing procedural approaches under rubbish ATC instruction or rubbish pilot liason with ATC. EVERYONE is trying to get established on the FAT to a runway. Hardly anyone is trying to GH in the middle of my random cloud... And remember, uncontrolled IMC flight is PERFECTLY legal in the UK. I am NOT in the habit of wearing a stetson and six shooter. Safe flying, WWW |
WWW,
I don't doubt its perfectly legal, but it can't be perfectly safe. I still don't understand how flying blind is a good idea! Maybe in a very remote area, if I could be 100% certain that nobody else is around,(as opposed to knowing that hardly anyone could be in my way), then I'd feel safe. The fact it happens all the time means its only a matter of time PS. What's 'GH' mean? (gaining height?, going home?) :) |
GH - General Handling.
You still don't seem to have understood the basic UK concept, Nimbus. Put simply, you can have radar separation from other traffic in the UK by asking for it on the radio. You don't need a flight plan. But you will only receive avoidance vectors under a radar ADVISORY service if you are also flying under IFR. You will NOT receive radar vectors if you're flying VFR; you might receive radar information if you actually need it and request it, but, perhaps unsurprisingly, under VFR you are normally expected to conduct your flight in accordance with VFR and accept a non-radar flight information service! I vehemently disagree with the ridiculous idea of flying in IMC without any radar service, unless in a controlled environment on a procedural clearance. That is positively inviting disaster ANYWHERE in the UK these days and is unbelievably poor airmanship!! Whether a pilot has a IMC Rating or IR in the 'open FIR' has virtually no relevance. All the IR really provides for its huge expense over the cost of an IMC Rating is the ability to fly a suitably-equipped aircraft in airways and to fly down to lower minima on an instrument approach. Unlike in some other countries, you can NEVER fly VFR in an airway in the UK, you must have a full IR to do so. Hence in the UK there are a lot of off-airways GA flights operating in IMC with a perfectly adequate radar service.....and NO flight plan is needed!!! On another, but related topic, I also think that to fly around under VFR 'practising IF in a Seneca with its screens up' is a hazard to other traffic UNLESS the 'additional observer', as required under air law when the field of view of the instructor is obstructed (as it will be in a Seneca 'with its screens up'), is actually carried. And how many cash-strapped UK training schools actually do this, I wonder?? [This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 01 February 2001).] [This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 01 February 2001).] |
Operating IMC with a RIS is safe beyond question in the UK.
I agree totally that IMC flight in uncontrolled airspace without procedural or radar separation is undesireable in the extreme. HOWEVER, on occasions and with lots of caveats and planning it can be done with a level of risk commensurate with other flying training activities. As illustration. Its a miserable wet Saturday morning with a cloudbase of 1500ft. You have a student needing some IF GH and radio aids work. You pick an area with nice flat terrain handy for a forced landing with late cloud break. You have the area nicely defined by multiple cockpit navaids and groundstations. You ensure said area is not on a diect line between nearby aerodomes, has no airways above it and is in the middle of nowhere. You get a FIS from London and also broadcast on local frequencies where applicable, blind if necessary. You check the mil coordination service prior and also file a VFR flight plan defining your area, times and altitudes for the sortie. You plan two diversion aerodromes that have current weather allowing sensible minimas for instrumental approach. All this extra planning is done with Bloggs in tow as a useful training event in itself. Having done all that the actual risk of mid air collision is low. Compare that with the routine close shaves encountered in a busy little airfield on a sunny Saturday afternoon in the summer. Microlights, 5hrs a year PPLīs, solo students and matey boy in his Yak performing running breaks... Compare that with the routine NDB approaches made by Bloggs with the screens up where you are number 2 with number 1 on a low approach and go around back to the beacon and number 3 is just calling localiser established. Your neck is doing a decent impression of Rod Hull and Emu whilst Bloggs drifts all over the FAT with wildly erratic speed and VSI indications missing checks and gear along the way. Compare that with the PFL midweek into Farmer Palmers best flat field which attracts every other student in the county plus the local Mil helicopter squadron. You know the field, the one with the flock of birds on it nicking the new seed with the rising ground o the left and the woods to the right and those cables half a mile upwind. Then of course you are in the hangar queen with "the big mag drop" and the slightly over rich mixture for the go around. Compare that with cruising along on an IMC training flight (say Welshpool to Filton as I remember) at flight level enormous under positive radar control - maybee even an IFR flight plan - but in a Warrior. Whoops! Its all gone quiet, so its drift down time into the Brecon Beacons with an 800ft cloudbase and hill fog expected. Pass me the superman outfit will you - or perhaps you are going to use The Force today. My basic point is that the comparable risk of a well planned uncontrolled non radar IMC sortie is equal to or less than other routine flying training sortie. As I stated before - airmanship makes all the difference. Its all very well saying donīt do it sit at home but if thats the job and thats the equipment and the CAA says its legal then sometimes sitting on the ground drinking another coffee is not a viable option. If you want to keep your job. Or pay your rent. Thats my tuppence haīpenny on a fogged in no-fly day. Safe flying, WWW |
Flying in IMC without a radar service is stupid in the extreme. For a flight instructor to advocate such a criminally insane practice is beyond belief!
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Rolling circle, we may have disagreed in the past, but I'm 100% with you on this! For a well known flight instructor to advocate such dangerous practice is thoroughly reprehensible.
WWW - YOU ARE WRONG!! |
Thanks BEagle,
Now I know what GH is! I get the picture on the IMC/IFR scene in the UK! I see the IFR/Flight Plan route as the only safe way to do it. Lose the radios and at least ATC know what you'll do! WWW, I still don't like the idea! In very, very, specialized instances, it may be 'safe', but in general the idea scares me! I would imagine that many people abuse it, however, and see it as a cheap IR rating. |
Nimbus
It isn't the F.P. that is needed if you are IFR outside C.A.S., this will not protect you at all, what you do need is RADAR COVER which in some parts of the UK is fairly good outside C.A.S. and non existent in others. |
I'm sure I posted this message yesterday but it hasn't showed up. PPRuNe was all different with a new layout and presentation and then now it's back to normal. What's going on with my broswer?
Anyway, back to my point. BEagle - The whole point about screens is that they shouldn't obstruct the instructors view. If they do then they shouldn't be approved. No one sits in the back of your IR test so the CAA must think that it's perfectly legal not to carry someone else. |
I donīt advocate it. I donīt like doing it. As I stated, it is extremely undesireable.
Iīm just being open and honest. Iīm lucky that Iīll never be in a position where I have to do that sort of training again. It was, and is, legal though. The best thing that could happen is that it is made illegal. That way there would be no pressure to do it and no need for people to exercise so much planning and caution over doing so. If its mid air collisions that you are worried about then far more would be achieved by shipping military fast jet training over to Canada. How many pilots killed over the last 10 years? I remember the turbine sections embedded not 100yds from the primary school in Carno... Or you could ban all light aicraft from being below 1000ft agl in Mid Wales, Northumbria and half of Scotland. I am even handed on that approach. Cheers, WWW [This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 02 February 2001).] |
foxmoth,
In areas of poor, or no, radar cover, a flight plan is your only protection. ATC will have cleared a block of airspace when they gave the clearance. If you lose communications, they already know what you are going to do, and won't vector other traffic into your path. Thats why I don't like the IMC rated pilot bouncing along on his own! |
Nimbus - in the UK it is IMPOSSIBLE for ATC to 'clear a block of airspace when they gave you the clearance' in the open Class G FIR - because it's UNCONTROLLED. Hence the UK's FIS/RIS/RAS system of ATSORA - Air Traffic Services Outside Regulate Airspace.
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Its a nice theory to never be IMC without a radar service, but it happens all the time when operating out of airfields outside of CAS with no radar. The one best hope for anyone in the LAM-BPK-BKY-BNN area, Luton, now provides no radar service outside of CAS (or shouldn't, I'm glad to say a couple of controllers still do when not busy..).
If ws only went VFR until a radar service is provided not much would fly !! The only time it would be provided is if we as operators are prepared to pay for it - the new commercialised NATS will have no interest unless ĢĢĢ are supplied by someone.... :)) |
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