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IMC in uncontrolled airspace.
A quick question.
How do you fly IFR in IMC conditions in uncontrolled airspace. Who provides the seperation. When i do my imc rating will I be able to take off through the cloud at my airfield in uncontrolled airspace? ------------------ He who smiles when the sh** hits the fan has found someone else to blame! |
TFG
You don't have to have any cover outside controlled airspace but it would be prudent to try and obtain a service from someone even if only F.I.S. It IS a big sky yes, but the thought of someone else coming your way in that nice fluffy cloud is quite scary! Personally (and professionally) I always upgrade to R.I.S whenever the need to fly I.M.C arises. Happy Landings :): JWF |
Does the word Quadrantal mean anything to you...perchance?
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RC..does the phrase "got to get to it and might pass somebody else's on the way" mean anything to YOU?
AND...(whilst rabbiting here)was cruising south eastish, down the East side of BHX last August, radar information service, 3500 (odd plus 5) VFR. Was advised by Brum of unidentified aircraft, 12 o clock, reciprocal heading, indicating 3500 (odd plus 5), squawking VFR. When we eventually spotted it we had to pitch down "for noise abatement" (as the joke says). Quadrantal - great idea, but everybody should join in. ------------------ Hunting is bad!! Support the right to arm Bears!! |
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And what about if someones behind you but going faster?
The quadrantal rule is a good basis but I don't trust it on its own. |
Once again I must show my lack of knowledge..
What is a 'Quadrantal'? Also, presumably in IMC conditions you must be on a IFR flight plan. If not, should you not remain VFR and clear of clouds? Being an FAA type, I don't know much about the legendary IMC rating. Reading this thread I get the impression that an IMC 'rating' allows you to blast through the clouds without talking to anyone. If this is true, thats the best reason I've ever heard for getting rid of it! |
Nimbus,
A 'quadrantal' is a cruising level based upon 500 ft separation and on 1013/29.92 . Hence it is basically similar to a semi-circular cruising level (except that there are 4 quadrants rather than 2 sectors), but because our UK GA traffic often flies around above our low transition altitude (3000 to 6000 ft depending upon where you are!), IFR traffic above 3000 ft amsl must fly on 1013 and fly at an appropriate cruising level. So, for example, if you're flying on 120 deg you need to be at FL35 or 55 or 75 etc., not at an altitude based on the local 'altimeter' as you would in the US. Although there is no actual legal requirement to talk to anyone in IMC, it would be plain daft not to. So if not under Radar Control, you take either Radar Advisory Service (only available under IFR) or Radar Information Service; the main difference between RAS and RIS being that under RAS the radar unit will attempt to provide the required IFR separation from other traffic, whereas under RIS you will be told of other traffic nearby and it's then up to you to manoeuvre (or maneuver!) appropriately. Why would anyone want RIS under IFR? Because to provide IFR separation to the extent which the ATC unit is required to can involve extensive vectoring; pilots who can 'walk and chew gum at the same time' or who can fly and think at the same time under IFR often prefer just to take their own avoidance action based upon the situational awareness provided by the radar unit. You might be quite happy with "Traffic left at 10 o'clock 2 miles, heading away" under RIS and choose not change your heading, but under RAS the controller would have had to have vectored you earlier to provide greater separation! Very simplistically, the IMC Rating is a basic instrument rating dsigned to equip UK pilots to cope with flight in IMC, but it is not the same as the Instrument Rating which in the UK requires far greater levels of ground and flying training plus testing in a comprehensively-equipped aircraft (and is much, much more expensive to obtain!). The IMC Rating has more restrictive take-off minima and recommended landing minima than an IR and it does NOT permit flight in Class A airspace. So if there's a layer of stratus with poor visibility underneath, rather than scrape around in marginal VFR underneath, with an IMC Rating you can get a radar service and climb to VFR on top, cruise to your destination, letting down again with a radar service to fly an ILS or GCA down to a 500 ft QFE DH or an NDB to 600 ft MDH (higher if the procedure minima dictate). Used within its limitations for the purpose intended, the IMC Rating is a very good rating for the average UK private pilot to obtain, but it is not a substitute for the PPL/IR. Also, if you're just going from A to B (remaining outside controlled airspace), even if you think that you'll need to fly in a bit of IMC en-route (at which point you'll be flying IFR), you don't need to file any sort of flight plan in the UK! No flight plan needed just to climb up through a bit of cloud to VMC on top!! [This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 28 January 2001).] |
NIMBUS - also you may want to note that you do NOT need to file a plan to fly IFR UNLESS you are going to fly in CONTROLLED airspace.
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In Canada we have vast areas of uncontrolled airspace. IFR traffic monitor 126.7 MHz and make position reports over all navaids, before changing altitudes, and any other time that it would be sensible to tell other traffic and/or ground stations where you are. We're required to announce intentions on 126.7 and on the aerodrome frequency five minutes (or earlier, the approach plates tell you), prior to starting the approach.
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BEagle,
So a 'quadrantal' is just a fancy name for recommended cruising altitude? Thanks for the lesson. Again you educate a dumb Yank (actually, a dumb mick living in the US!) I'm still a little confused. Seems like the IMC rating allows you to fly in IFR conditions without a flight plan? This sounds very dodgy to me. Even if the IMC rated hero sticks to his preferred altitude, is he/she not taking big risk? What happens if someone on an IFR plan is assigned a conflicting altitude by ATC?, or when he is coming down through the clouds? Foxmouth, I hope you're wrong! Do you mean simulated IFR in VFR conditions? I thought regulations require that you remain clear of clouds unless on a flight plan. The idea of somebody flying along in clouds when nobody knows hes there kind of scares me! |
Nimbus, et al - there is a difference between LAW and INTELLIGENCE.
If the airspace is NOT controlled then you can do what you like in it - by definition. It may not be a very good idea, indeed it may be bloody stupid, but what is legal and what you do may be completely different. It's a bit like flying a Saratoga on a hazy, pitch dark night across water to an island off the coast somewhere - without an instrument rating (or sufficient instrument training). It's not illegal - but it proved to be deadly for some....it all comes down to airmanship. ------------------ Hunting is bad!! Support the right to arm Bears!! |
Nimbus - I appreciate that, to anyone brought up under the FAA system, the freedom of flight without a Flight Plan may seem utterly alien, but that's the way it is in the UK. No-one would be stupid enough to fly in IMC without some sort of radar service, I hope, Flight Information Service is NOT a suitable alternative in IMC, in my view, because in the UK you may not be talking to someone who can see you on the screen. The selection of the appropriate type of service is taught to all PPL students (which makes re-training those who learned to fly at a US flight school important) and is the pilot's choice. It is important only to request the type of service which you actually need; there was a change in the rules a few years ago which meant that those used to off-airways VOR crawls in VFR for navigation ("Err, this is Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, PA28 from Boggsville to Sunnyplace, routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI, request Radar Advisory Service") will now only be given a RAS if they're under IFR. This was to stop ATC controller overload when people who should have been flying VFR were expecting an IFR radar separation to be provided for them. Nowadays such folk would be asked "Are you flying IFR?" Since most don't know the difference between IMC and IFR, they will usually reply "Negative" and will then be told that RAS is not available. It really is very simple, but it requires good airmanship.
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Hi BEagle,
Amazing differences between FAA and CAA! I guess the RIS then, is the same as optional VFR 'flight-following' in the US, but is, or was, also intended as a service to 'almost-but-not-quite' IFR flights? Bear Cub, Just watched a program about JFK Jr. Seems like he was actually a very careful pilot who never made a mistake. Very methodical and above average in skills. In short a gifted, natural airman! :rolleyes: I guess you were talking about someone else :) :) |
A call to all instructors here.
I do a lot of IMC training at an airfield where the approaches and the IAF are NOT in controlled airspace and the airfield does not have radar. This is the case at many fields in the UK, so you find yourself bumbling around with the screens up, teaching, often in poor vis or even in IMC when someone calls up to track via the beacon VFR. The controller cannot refuse them so suddenly you need eyes in the back of your head. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif The call to instructors:- well please do not teach students to transit IF recovery lanes just because it is a straight line on their plog. I go http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif if my student does this and then does not request a ATC clearance. From their point of view it is bad airmanship and they do not want to hit an IFR training Seneca on the ILS with its screens up. |
How precisely do you get an ATC Clearance for a VFR transit outside controlled airspace? Or track a beacon in IMC under VFR?
[This message has been edited by Noggin (edited 29 January 2001).] |
No such thing as an ATC clearance outside controlled airspace - butI suspect that was your point anyway!!
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I think the UK system works very well as evidenced by the lack of mid air collisions and the lack of a statistically significant higher incidence of TCAS warnings in UK airspace.
Obviously the whole thing rather relies on airmanship. I have spent many hours over the least year of two in IMC without radar or procesural ATC control. This is never something which is done lightly. However, in the UK if you earn by the hour as a FI then the typical weather almost impells you to fly uncontrolled IMC in many parts of the country. By having a sensible pre-planned entry and exit from IMC conditions, by observing quadrantal rules and making blind transmissions over beacons one can operate with a reasonable degree of safety. In the South East of England this probably would not be the case. However much of the UK is pretty sparse (mid Wales in my case). The military can more or less be gauranteed to be mowing the lawn at the weekends these days. "Proper" IFR traffic will have ATC seperation from you as well as possibly TCAS. I have actually done it one several occassions with only a funtioning VOR receiver and transponder. Thats not much to go on and a lot of OBS twiddling is required. However, if you set yourself some rules and plan plan plan before the sortie then it can be doen safely. With regard to the wider issue of the IMC. This is a really great example of the UK common sense approach. Is it better to be scud running in poor viz or is it better to be up there way above MSA in the clear blue? I know personally of two people killed by running just below a cloudbase into cummulo granitas... You donīt need the demands of the full blown UK IRT to fly perfectly safely down an ILS or VOR/DME approach to, say, 650ft QFE. I see new students every week able to fly perfectly safe ILSīs down to 400ft QFE with only half an hours instruction. Long live the IMC rating. WWW |
The point of flying above in the blue is well made, if you are going on top you need to get up/down through, so you need to have an IMC or IR rating to fly ABOVE the clouds if it is solid below!
[This message has been edited by foxmoth (edited 30 January 2001).] |
WWW,
Sounds like the big sky theory to me. Maybe it would work in the UK, but I'd hate to try it anywhere in the US! Lots of uncontrolled space, but lots of traffic, too! I'm still not comfortable with the idea of an IMC free-for-all! |
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