Brexit, licences and training
 

Hi all,

With even the governor of the BofE speaking out today, it seems a no-deal is increasingly likely. In any sort of risk analysis, it really looks like something that now needs prepared for.

My first question, prompted by a student, is:

Do we need to warn students studying for an EASA licence that the licence may not be valid after the end of March next year - especially if they are contemplating a commercial career? Ryanair have already changed their booking Ts&Cs for instance, so should UK schools be doing the same?

Just as my wife was able to swap her Spanish driving licence for a UK one, can we swap a UK-issued EASA licence for another EU country issued one before Brexit?

The next question is particular to my circumstances.

I have a Spanish wife and a son/daughter-in-law/grandson living in the USA. I now want to get a light aircraft licence after 25 years instructing on microlights so I can hire an aircraft in Spain and the USA..

If I do an intensive course in Spain, can I get a Spanish-issued EASA SEP - or are the written exam questions in Spanish?

If I do an intensive course in the USA, and get a FAA licence, how straightforward is it to get a non-UK EASA SEP. I think it is very easy to get an FAA licence on the back of a European one.

I am reluctant to go for a UK-issued EASA SEP when - if Brexit ends up no deal - I could just add an SSEA rating to my NPPL once I had an FAA or EASA licence.

Thoughts?

He actually said the prospect of the UK leaving the EU without a deal was:

CG

All things are possible, including all aviation above paper dart level being grounded on 30th March 2019.
The least likely a/c to be grounded are, funnily enough, microlights as the group of aircraft/licences almost wholly self governing.
Since in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there won't be any AVGAS 100LL, as it's all imported from Europe, there won't be any SEP flying.
Actually, lack of aviation will be the least of our worries. I read somewhere that we're only 24 hours at any stage of a disruption of the supply chain, from food riots and mass looting of supermarkets.
It'll make the poll tax riots look like a Sunday afternoon in the park.
We're buying seeds and marking out the lawn for vegetable beds.
TOO

You can move your EASA license to another state quite easily. If you get an EASA license from the CAA and all goes tits-up, just move it to Spain, Ireland or the Netherlands before the deadline.

B61, seems a tad aggressive don't you think?,

I would suspect the TOO was being somewhat tongue in cheek about a possible, but not necessarily likely, problem.

Dusty_B,

Thanks for that comment. So no need to be resident in any of those countries?

As regards chances of No Deal etc, I am just thinking along the lines of better safe than sorry, or be prepared,

If there was a 1% chance of No Deal, not much preparation. For a higher chance - whatever one might think it to be - then there would a be a higher level.

Some things, like topping up the avgas tanks at the airfield towards the end of March rather than the beginning of April, would be a sensible move?

But my query was really about licensing.

Thanks for that Rarely.

Solves part of my problem then.

No problem flying in the UK on my own C42 microlight, and then I can get a Spanish EASA SEP for hiring in wife's country and then use that to get an FAA licence for hiring in son's country.

Just need to swim from UK to France in case of a complete meltdown ;-)

And yet the only place still making TEL is Innospec in Cheshire: "Our Octane Additives business is the world’s only manufacturer of tetraethyl lead (TEL) products." [ Octane Additives ]

A number of European States that are not members of the EU issue EASA licences with no problems. Apart from pig headed arrogance, why would the UK be any different?

Because to do that you have to be a paying (but non-voting) member of EASA. And to be a member of EASA you have to accept the ECJ as the ultiumate arbiter on aviation issues. Accepting ECJ jurisdiction crosses the red lines of the Brexit Elite, so they would rather destroy the whole nation, trash our economy and return us to the dark ages than ever admit they were wrong. They're just that sort of people.

PDR

Honest man tell student...

Ignore all speculation and b/s. Six months nothing in overall scheme of life. Take trip, work in MacDonalds. Come back when all b/s is over and make informed choice. Good luck, grassshopper.

...still, flying training not always known for putting students interests first is it.

Had not realised that EASA was linked to ECJ. This is a big deal. Hope for a GE!
 

bad news all round

CAP 1705 Automatic validation anyone?

Not exactly. You medical records must be held by the license issuer, but you can have your medical examination done by any EASA medical centre. So when you transfer your license, your first step is to have your medical records transferred.
The other tricky part is the proficiency check/skill test/assessment of competence issue. Depending on the new license issuer, it can be easy, difficult, or impossible to have those checks/tests/assessments undertaken by an examiner whose license is issued by another EASA state.
I have had my license transferred from the UK to France, it took several weeks, so plan it in advance.

I heard once that one of the baltic states' CAA has a reputation of being efficient and is cheap. It might be a good choice for a new license issuer.

Only if we remain in the EU and you're operating commercially, outside the EU, in an aircraft registered in an EU state other than that which issued your licence.

Flying keyboard,

Yes, there will be. But what?

The obvious solution is for the UK CAA to recognise your training and give you an NPPL SSEA. At least that will allow you to continue to fly in the UK.

Question: will the CAA have got its act together - or is it even allowed to do anything while part of EASA? - and negotiate with ICAO to make the NPPL SSEA (or a brand new old-fashioned UK PPL A) an ICAO compliant licence that you can later add CPL etc to?

Maybe we should have a wiki to pose some of these questions and possible answers.

For instance, will UK airspace close on Brexit plus one? ATC have EASA licences! Will many airlines be grounded with many of their pilots having UK CAA issued EASA licences? How will transatlantic stuff re-route?

Will it matter if UK airspace is closed for a week or two while temporary solutions are fudged? After all, the world never came to halt when the ash clouds shut our airspace for weeks.

As you can see, I feel all will be OK for the Big Boys. But what about the Small Fry like FKB?

FKB: ask your flying school. See what they say!

The UK issue ICAO licences, always has done and always will do. An ICAO licence is valid Worldwide and oddly, the only people who seem to have an issue with ICAO licences is EASA who are not a member of ICAO. The EU list of objectives given to EASA by the EC includes: "Assisting member States to comply with ICAO recommemdations" Switzerland and the Channel Islands are not in the EU, they don't seem to have any problems.

I have no reference other than CAP1705, which states:
Is it possible that the UK CAA have got it wrong? Surely not!

Usual problem: New CAP Friday; Wrong on Monday!

I put the question to the CAA yesterday and had a reply today.

Seems entirely reasonable to me.

I also asked whether it would apply to a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL licence flying, for example, a French registered aircraft to Jersey....which is neither an EU nor EASA Member State.

Or what administrative action would be required for a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL flying an IoM registered aircraft to Eire?

My supplementary questions will have to wait until the chap responsible returns from his hols.

BEagle,

The Isle of Man and Channel Islands fall under the UK's ratification of the Chicago Convention, IASTA, etc.

The IoM CAA states:

This position is also addressed in a Ministry of Justice fact sheet on the UK's relationship with the Crown Dependencies:

Further details can be found in annexes referred to in the above fact sheet.

Annex B -- How to Note on the extension of international instruments to the Crown Dependencies.

Annex C -- How to Note on dealing with requests from the Crown Dependencies to extend the UK's ratification of international instruments.

One contributor has described much of the facts in this thread as bl/sht and I agree. All 28 members (soon to be 27) of the EU member states are members of ICAO in their own right. There are 192 members of ICAO worldwide so the EU group is a small part. ICAO it could be said only provides for the minimum acceptable international standards of all its members. So all EASA standards will be acceptable to ICAO member states in this regard. The UK leaving the EU does not change this. The EU cannot join ICAO it is not a State. Incidentally 7 of the current 28 EU states sit on the worldwide council of ICAO!

For all flights it is the individual state that decides who may crew their aircraft and that has not changed even within the EU. All EU states have a common standard. therefore there cannot be an objection to a UK pilot compliant with both ICAO and EASA flying a German registered aircraft unless Germany objects. e.g. EASA cannot intervene directly and it will need to bring pressure on Germany and further claim Germany is in breach of its agreement with the EU. Outside of EASA land the EU is not part of it in this instance. All this, to me therefore, appears to be bureaucrats getting themselves in a tangle and nothing new there.

I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.

Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again

Yes, according to the ANO:

On the grounds that you should never throw away anything that is hard earned, it is well worth ticking the box and having 2 licences.

From the Scheme of Charges:

I've been looking for days on the CAA website to find a suitable srg form to apply for a national licence based on my EASA ATPL but no joy. Any lead please? thank you

There is no form. You have to use the SRG1104 modified accordingly. If you were converting to an EASA licence you only had to tick the box in Section 4. I note that SRG1104 has now gone to an on-line form.

The paper version is also acceptable (link). Licensing advises including a covering letter. Licences permitted by the Air Navigation Order as I understand it are mapped here (PDF).

I upgraded straight from JAR CPL to EASA ATPL early 2017; the form I used back then did not have any box to tick - I think it was srg/1183. I did not query this matter at time (i know i should have!) because my newly issued licence had more pressing errors I had to urgently fix!

Thank you very much for the help guys :)

I would rather not leave EASA as it becomes career ending for me....... I am a UK FE/CRE/TRE and do enough line flying for currency. The rest of my work is travelling around Europe testing pilots on our rather unique fleet. Not being able to test EASA licence holders would not only end my career but have a huge impact on the companies ability to operate.

Except, in a no deal scenario the UK won't be ICAO compliant on Brexit day. Lots of things the UK files to be ICAO compliant are simply statements pointing to EASA or other pan-EU policy / groups. As it will have no access to the regulatory structure of the EU and EASA it will not be compliant. The implications of this are enormous and affect every part of the UK air industry and anyone with a UK licence or approval of any sort or any kind of third-country endorsement based on a UK licence or approval. It is increasingly likely they will all be invalid on 30 March 2019.

Now it may be possible to reinstate these missing CAA areas but not by March 29 2019 and not without vast expense which (in-case you hadn't noticed) the CAA is required to recover from you the user.

This is why the CAA were saying for a long time that a "no-deal" Brexit is so catastrophic it isn't worth planning for. There is no viable alternative to a deal that keeps the UK in EASA, at least temporarily, and talk from UK politicians of "no-deal" being fine is insanity of the highest order. If this affects you, you need to be hassling your MP to find an exit from Brexit before it destroys your livelihood.

What utter rubbish. ICAO compliance has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU who are not even a signatory to ICAO. ICAO compliance means operating in accordance with ICAO recommendations which the UK has always done in and out of the EU.

OK, I'll give you an easy one to start with: explain how the UK currently complies with ICAO Annex 19 standards and how it will comply with it on 30 March 2019.

ICAO Annex 19 is aimed at member States; each State is responsible to ICAO for compliance and notification of any differences. The oversight afforded by EASA is not covered in the Annex 19 process and ammounts to nothing more than a middleman that has no responsibility to ICAO as it is neither a State nor a member.