Instructing on PA28-140s
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Joined: May 2000
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From: Midlands, UK
Instructing on PA28-140s
Having gained my instructor ticket fairly recently I have just started instructing at weekends. The club I fly at has a mixture of aircraft, one of which is a Cherokee 140. Most of my flying previously was on Warriors and Cessnas where the trimmer is either between the seats or down in front. Accurately trimming these aircraft has never been a problem but I just can't seem to achieve the same level of consistency with the Cherokee with the trimmer on the ceiling. The sensation and feel is totally different and I invariably have to look up to see what's happening! 
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
To demo it to the student (on the ground), position the trimmer so that the end is athwartships with the knob on the student's side. Then move the knob 'back', gently push student's forehead back to indicate nose-up movement, move knob 'forward', gently push on back of student's head to indicate nose down movement..... Then repeat - back for up, forward for down.
Mark you, I've also chinagraphed 'U' and 'D' on the headlining to remind the students!
Mark you, I've also chinagraphed 'U' and 'D' on the headlining to remind the students!
Joined: May 2001
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The best thing is try not to think about which direction to turn it.
Just stick you hand on it and turn it the way that feels right.
I always find that if I think which direction to turn it, it all goes wrong.
I would also give them a bit more than usual play with it on effects of controls. And if they seem to be doing it right leave them alone.
MJ
Just stick you hand on it and turn it the way that feels right.
I always find that if I think which direction to turn it, it all goes wrong.
I would also give them a bit more than usual play with it on effects of controls. And if they seem to be doing it right leave them alone.
MJ
Easy way is...
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Blighty
So BEagle, it's your graffiti in the aircraft. But as you're the CFI - I suppose it's OK. As for which way to turn the thing, I've been flying the aircraft for 8 years now and still get it wrong!
I like the Cherrytree as an instructional aircraft - far better than a C150/2 anyday. The one thing I don't like is the ASI. the MPH with KNTS in the middle with the TAS calculator is a very busy instrument which is hard to read from the right hand seat. The CAA concluded it contributed to a fatal accident at Bournemouth in 1999 and recommended that it be changed to a single value instrument.
I like the Cherrytree as an instructional aircraft - far better than a C150/2 anyday. The one thing I don't like is the ASI. the MPH with KNTS in the middle with the TAS calculator is a very busy instrument which is hard to read from the right hand seat. The CAA concluded it contributed to a fatal accident at Bournemouth in 1999 and recommended that it be changed to a single value instrument.
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Indeed it is, Dan! But since the ac fleet is actually owned by the shareholders - and there are only 2 of us - then I will indeed feel free to write U and D on the headlining to make it easier for others!
Joined: May 1999
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From: UK
I personally teach it as 'the direction it moves as the handle passes over your head.'
simple...fowrward over you head - forward trim,
backwards over your head - backwards trim..
Dont like the idea of the students looking up to see which way it turns - i have a hard enough time convincing them to keep looking out of the window!!
The worse thing about the 140 trimmer.....you have to 'search' for it unless you are very careful about remembering where you put it last!!
simple...fowrward over you head - forward trim,
backwards over your head - backwards trim..
Dont like the idea of the students looking up to see which way it turns - i have a hard enough time convincing them to keep looking out of the window!!
The worse thing about the 140 trimmer.....you have to 'search' for it unless you are very careful about remembering where you put it last!!
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: uk
Beauty of the 140 trim is that you can trim by numbers.
2 turns nose up.....trim for climb.
Base 2nd flap... 4 turns trim nose up.
I think 5 turns nose up...trim for glide.
Makes initial trimming easy.
I teach/taught similiar technique on Warriors with between the seat trimmer. Very good for when you go imc/ltd panel.
2 turns nose up.....trim for climb.
Base 2nd flap... 4 turns trim nose up.
I think 5 turns nose up...trim for glide.
Makes initial trimming easy.
I teach/taught similiar technique on Warriors with between the seat trimmer. Very good for when you go imc/ltd panel.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: UK
Ah yes the PA23 Apache - a real gentleman's aircraft!
Regarding the trimmer in the roof on the earlier PA28-140s, I recall an "older" instructor telling students to treat it as the top of an upside down beer bottle - if you wanted to trim nose up, screw the bottle top back on again!!
I did all my initial instruction on the PA28 - 140, a versatile aircraft and fun to operate.
Regarding the trimmer in the roof on the earlier PA28-140s, I recall an "older" instructor telling students to treat it as the top of an upside down beer bottle - if you wanted to trim nose up, screw the bottle top back on again!!
I did all my initial instruction on the PA28 - 140, a versatile aircraft and fun to operate.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: uk
I seem to remember from my initial training that the 140 was the only aircraft that seemed to flip upside down during spin entry, most exciting when you only have 6 hours logged and i could never find that dustbin in the tail!
Tough old bird
Tough old bird
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Blighty
Sounds like you had a bent one Bob (Oooeer!) Both our club -140s beahve in a spin.
The worst thing about that trimmer is instructing on a hot day with a student who's feeling the pressure - and hasn't used underarm deodorant
The worst thing about that trimmer is instructing on a hot day with a student who's feeling the pressure - and hasn't used underarm deodorant
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: uk
I think it was the rather agressive way we were taught to do spins, i think entry speed was a bit high.
My instructor was the typical ex RAF B of B pilot.
On my final test with said instructor he being the CFI/examiner, my spin entry/recovery not up to par, 10 spin entries later i think i got the idea
My instructor was the typical ex RAF B of B pilot.
On my final test with said instructor he being the CFI/examiner, my spin entry/recovery not up to par, 10 spin entries later i think i got the idea
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Over 45000 hours between the pair of them and our 2 PA28-140Cs still behave exactly as it says on the packet......
Agree with Dan W regarding the deodorant problems when some sweating student is frantically winding away on that Austin Seven window-winder dangling from the ceiling!
Agree with Dan W regarding the deodorant problems when some sweating student is frantically winding away on that Austin Seven window-winder dangling from the ceiling!
Last edited by BEagle; 18th August 2003 at 05:52.
Joined: May 2003
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From: south west
Having flown the PA 28 range for the last 11 years, I'll agree with the comments about "They do exactly as it says on the tin" My first experience of spinning the PA28-140 was during my initial instructors course.
My biggest problem was getting the flaming thing to stay in! Previously I'd only ever spun Zlins and you've only got to think about spinning and in she goes. The placid little 28 flipped over on her back then decided that as I hadn't been firm enough with the entry, we'd go towards Vne with the yours truly holding in a boot full of left rudder. Nice.
I recently flew a 28-140 with a roof trimmer for the first time in about 3 years, and the lesson was trimming, and the effects of flap and power. Enough said!!!!! Not the best lesson I've conducted.
I mainly teach now on PA38's. Trimmer, well, it's got one, and as for the spinning................................ Nah, not today!
For my money, you can't beat a PA 28 for teaching.
My biggest problem was getting the flaming thing to stay in! Previously I'd only ever spun Zlins and you've only got to think about spinning and in she goes. The placid little 28 flipped over on her back then decided that as I hadn't been firm enough with the entry, we'd go towards Vne with the yours truly holding in a boot full of left rudder. Nice.
I recently flew a 28-140 with a roof trimmer for the first time in about 3 years, and the lesson was trimming, and the effects of flap and power. Enough said!!!!! Not the best lesson I've conducted.
I mainly teach now on PA38's. Trimmer, well, it's got one, and as for the spinning................................ Nah, not today!
For my money, you can't beat a PA 28 for teaching.
