Future lack of FI's
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
Future lack of FI's
Just a hunch this but I reckon the JAR could have dealt a nasty blow to the Instructional world.
Let me explain.
I am currently going through the modular pipeline to CPL. I don't know what the future holds, but I do like the idea of instructing.
Now that we no longer have the BCPL, you need the same time and money to get the CPL whether you wish to instruct or progress to ATPL. There is only £200 difference in the exams, so most I will assume will sit ATPL exams whilst they can.
At this point you have a choice. You can spent £5-6000 getting an FI's qualification, but that puts you at the base of the pecking with a limited skill base to offer an employer. Or you can spend £11-12000 and get a multi/IR ending up with a frozen ATPL and the potentiol to earn far greater money.
My concern is that the narrowing of the financial costs between FI and fATPL mwill mean that a lot of potentially good instructors will bypass the training world to seek better payment to repay the large investment they have to make. This is my dilema, and quite possibly the same for many others in that I am spending a lot of money, but I am struggling to figure out how I could pay it back through instructing. I may be forced to chase the jobs with greater remuneration.
Any thoughts/comments guys?
Let me explain.
I am currently going through the modular pipeline to CPL. I don't know what the future holds, but I do like the idea of instructing.
Now that we no longer have the BCPL, you need the same time and money to get the CPL whether you wish to instruct or progress to ATPL. There is only £200 difference in the exams, so most I will assume will sit ATPL exams whilst they can.
At this point you have a choice. You can spent £5-6000 getting an FI's qualification, but that puts you at the base of the pecking with a limited skill base to offer an employer. Or you can spend £11-12000 and get a multi/IR ending up with a frozen ATPL and the potentiol to earn far greater money.
My concern is that the narrowing of the financial costs between FI and fATPL mwill mean that a lot of potentially good instructors will bypass the training world to seek better payment to repay the large investment they have to make. This is my dilema, and quite possibly the same for many others in that I am spending a lot of money, but I am struggling to figure out how I could pay it back through instructing. I may be forced to chase the jobs with greater remuneration.
Any thoughts/comments guys?
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: Glen Prosen, Scotland
What tends to happen is that people fork out the £12000 or so first, get the multi IR etc., then sit about for ages bombarding people with CVs until they get fed up, then go and spend another £6000 to get the instructor's ticket to keep flying while they wait. Not an ideal situation but as long as instruction pays massively less than the airlines one which will continue. Unfortunately the only people who can afford to be instructors for the love of it don't need the money so the situation won't change (in the near future anyway).
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: UK
Since I started flying the FI rates of pay have hovered
around national minimum wage - this has been the
case for the last 15 years and I doubt that will change..
This whole industry relies on pilot goodwill to subsidise it
around national minimum wage - this has been the
case for the last 15 years and I doubt that will change..
This whole industry relies on pilot goodwill to subsidise it
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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I personally always wanted to be a FI before moving on. And I was lucky in getting a full time FI position.
I enjoy teaching and in interview instead of giving the usual I want to be a Capt in 5 years time. I will say I want to also be part of the training team in some form. And with any luck my job will allow me to continue teaching PPL's.
And I agree with you, when things pick up again the number of FI's will drop.
Teaching students I think actually teaches you a lot more than you realise. There is the obvious spacial awarness and confidence.
But it also teaches you alot about human performance, the reactions of other pilots under stress and dealing with people.
I also think that I changed as an Instructor after the MCC which highlighted points about information flow in the cockpit which wern't covered in the FI course.
MJ
I enjoy teaching and in interview instead of giving the usual I want to be a Capt in 5 years time. I will say I want to also be part of the training team in some form. And with any luck my job will allow me to continue teaching PPL's.
And I agree with you, when things pick up again the number of FI's will drop.
Teaching students I think actually teaches you a lot more than you realise. There is the obvious spacial awarness and confidence.
But it also teaches you alot about human performance, the reactions of other pilots under stress and dealing with people.
I also think that I changed as an Instructor after the MCC which highlighted points about information flow in the cockpit which wern't covered in the FI course.
MJ
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,511
Likes: 1,850
From: England
Plenty of people on the modular route have noted they stans no chance of an airline job. They elect to to a FI rating instead of the IR module. FI examiners have been pretty busy over the last 12 months.
Unfortunately schools are quiet and few instructors have moved up the ladder so there is now a large pool of new instructors. Hence wages and conditions are under pressure.
This year has shown a noticeable dearth of adverts in the usual magazines for instructors as the summer season approached. Its actually been worse than last year in the Sept 11th aftermath.
Depresssingly.
WWW
Unfortunately schools are quiet and few instructors have moved up the ladder so there is now a large pool of new instructors. Hence wages and conditions are under pressure.
This year has shown a noticeable dearth of adverts in the usual magazines for instructors as the summer season approached. Its actually been worse than last year in the Sept 11th aftermath.
Depresssingly.
WWW
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: 26000 to 28,000 lightyears from the galatic centre
I thought the airline side was looking up, in the past month 2 of my mates have got right hand seats and one of my students a a sponsorship.
Can't come too soon if you ask me, the sooner all you hours building FIs move off to your glam jobs with the big jets and fancy birds, the sooner us career FIs who are doing it for the love of flying can really start to teach our students and also pick up an hourly rate that covers more than just expenses.
The reason that FI pay is poor is that all you airline pilot wannabes, will fly and work for near nothing, will not join an association and only have the objectives of hours building and moving on.
At one outfit I operate with, the career instructors want to make each booking a 3 hour slot not the current one and a half hour.
That way we only fly 2-3 hours a day but spend 3-4 hours TEACHING our students the facts of aviation life. So we get paid for teaching with a bit of flying not just for time in the air.
However the hours builder wannabes want to stuff the students into the air no matter what, just to pick up there £10 flight pay
I challenge all FIs to get together, to form a union or association to get together and sort this out. AOPA and the CAA wont touch it not in there interest??
Come on anybody got the GUTS to do this.
Have Fun
Can't come too soon if you ask me, the sooner all you hours building FIs move off to your glam jobs with the big jets and fancy birds, the sooner us career FIs who are doing it for the love of flying can really start to teach our students and also pick up an hourly rate that covers more than just expenses.
The reason that FI pay is poor is that all you airline pilot wannabes, will fly and work for near nothing, will not join an association and only have the objectives of hours building and moving on.
At one outfit I operate with, the career instructors want to make each booking a 3 hour slot not the current one and a half hour.
That way we only fly 2-3 hours a day but spend 3-4 hours TEACHING our students the facts of aviation life. So we get paid for teaching with a bit of flying not just for time in the air.
However the hours builder wannabes want to stuff the students into the air no matter what, just to pick up there £10 flight pay
I challenge all FIs to get together, to form a union or association to get together and sort this out. AOPA and the CAA wont touch it not in there interest??
Come on anybody got the GUTS to do this.
Have Fun
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
!!!! an association they are all patroled by gimps with no future.
Its a none starter,
At ppl level we are all defined by our reputations if it was unionised we would have to carry all the gimps kicking about.
Let the sods sit in there own !!!!e, poor customer service and poor quality of training the career instructors out there will carry themselves because they are good, the twats will fade into nothing due to lack of business.
MJ
Its a none starter,
At ppl level we are all defined by our reputations if it was unionised we would have to carry all the gimps kicking about.
Let the sods sit in there own !!!!e, poor customer service and poor quality of training the career instructors out there will carry themselves because they are good, the twats will fade into nothing due to lack of business.
MJ
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,511
Likes: 1,850
From: England
Show me a 'career instructor' who would turn down a Boeing RHS then.
Criticizing people for hour building via teaching is nonsense. There are as many jaded 'career instructors' as there are wet behind the ears logbook fetishists.
WWW
Criticizing people for hour building via teaching is nonsense. There are as many jaded 'career instructors' as there are wet behind the ears logbook fetishists.
WWW
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 77
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From: England
here we go again <zips up his Nomex>:
Just as this matter has been discussed sooo many times before,
it is a "universal truth" that this situation will never ever change.
FTO's want to keep their profits up/costs down and if the "market" is such that free/cheap instructors are available then they will use that supply NO MATTER how career-minded the "career instructors" are.
Just ask yourself when was the last time an FTO actually REDUCED PRICES due to market conditions ?
The concept of "career instructors" barely works within the larger commercial FTOs let alone in the "porta-kabin flying club".
No matter how well-intentioned you are as a "career instructor",
you maight as well be pi**ing into the wind when it comes to "recognition, employment rights and a sensible salary" (makes me laugh just to think about it).
The best advice is to continue to provide a service that sets you apart from the "herd" and hope that you will be in demand for the impressive teaching skills that you demonstrate.
I would not agree that EVERY instructor would grab a job offer of a RHS in a Boeing - life is not that simple.
<fire extinguisher at the ready>.....
Just as this matter has been discussed sooo many times before,
it is a "universal truth" that this situation will never ever change.
FTO's want to keep their profits up/costs down and if the "market" is such that free/cheap instructors are available then they will use that supply NO MATTER how career-minded the "career instructors" are.
Just ask yourself when was the last time an FTO actually REDUCED PRICES due to market conditions ?
The concept of "career instructors" barely works within the larger commercial FTOs let alone in the "porta-kabin flying club".
No matter how well-intentioned you are as a "career instructor",
you maight as well be pi**ing into the wind when it comes to "recognition, employment rights and a sensible salary" (makes me laugh just to think about it).
The best advice is to continue to provide a service that sets you apart from the "herd" and hope that you will be in demand for the impressive teaching skills that you demonstrate.
I would not agree that EVERY instructor would grab a job offer of a RHS in a Boeing - life is not that simple.
<fire extinguisher at the ready>.....
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 424
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From: UK
Actually WWW I think Id turn down that 737 RHS now....but still its a funny old world isnt it. To be honest I only wanted to do it to pay the mortgage and fly - but I think I may have hit on a better setup to suit me & my personal situation....so now I am quite happy to 'career instruct' thanks.....
Hours building via teaching - i still dont agree with it. fact of life it may be - but I personally believe you should
a) want to teach
b) love flying the aircraft you teach on
c) are extremely enthusiastic about GA flying/private flying somewhat moreso than 737 flying....
d) Be willing to put in what it takes because you love it
e) look at the window and bloody well avoid me rather than whistfully daydreaming about big shiney things.....(saves me airprox paperwork!!)
AFAI am concerned hours gained should really be a secondary consideration - not a primary one.
Just me thoughts......also got the fire extinguisher at the ready
FF
Hours building via teaching - i still dont agree with it. fact of life it may be - but I personally believe you should
a) want to teach
b) love flying the aircraft you teach on
c) are extremely enthusiastic about GA flying/private flying somewhat moreso than 737 flying....
d) Be willing to put in what it takes because you love it
e) look at the window and bloody well avoid me rather than whistfully daydreaming about big shiney things.....(saves me airprox paperwork!!)
AFAI am concerned hours gained should really be a secondary consideration - not a primary one.
Just me thoughts......also got the fire extinguisher at the ready
FF
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 503
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Tangent time!!
Well, if there's a fire going, let me throw an iron into it!
When there are people willing and able to instruct for nothing on a PPL FI ticket there will always be a job for them and a low rate for those who have a CPL FI ticket, makes business sense doesn't it. They are obviously doing it for the love of it! The question is should it be allowed?
When there are people willing and able to instruct for nothing on a PPL FI ticket there will always be a job for them and a low rate for those who have a CPL FI ticket, makes business sense doesn't it. They are obviously doing it for the love of it! The question is should it be allowed?
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 77
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From: England
SNIGS: regarding "The question is should it be allowed?"
There is'nt an organisation or a union to police it.
In fact whilst there is a "free market" there can never be a union.
The situation is that as an FTO you are free to choose from the available source of instructors. As an FTO you will want to minimise your costs and therefore minimise the fees that you have to pay to the instructors you use. Nobody is able to force
you to do otherwise.
In fact, just try charging a fee as a PPL Examiner in some FTOs and see how many times they call you to do an exam.
Historically, the majority of instructors were really "transient workers" on their way to the airlines. The fact was that they needed the hours and the FTOs loved (still do) the idea of "free flying time" in return for a no-fee instructor.
Once that instructor moved on, there would be dozens more waiting to take their place.
I can see to some extent that when airline pilots return to instruction during the down-turn cycle of the industry, they generate bad feeling amongst those who have been instructing all along. Suddenly these people find that they are not called in so often because the FTO has found an eager and completely free source of instructors.
The shame of it all is that the customer still gets charged a "dual rate".
In conclusion, it is still the same story at your local "porta-kabin flying club". They now have a ready pool of fATPLs who turn to instructing to build their hours while they have nothing else to do.
These people will move on when they have a transport flying job and the next batch will be right behind them.
There is only one way that the whole thing could be changed and that is for the airlines to pay for the IR and type ratings after the ATPL theory exams and take FOs as "apprentice" pilots until they
get the magic 1500 hrs <ooops, I just saw a pig fly past....>
There is'nt an organisation or a union to police it.
In fact whilst there is a "free market" there can never be a union.
The situation is that as an FTO you are free to choose from the available source of instructors. As an FTO you will want to minimise your costs and therefore minimise the fees that you have to pay to the instructors you use. Nobody is able to force
you to do otherwise.
In fact, just try charging a fee as a PPL Examiner in some FTOs and see how many times they call you to do an exam.
Historically, the majority of instructors were really "transient workers" on their way to the airlines. The fact was that they needed the hours and the FTOs loved (still do) the idea of "free flying time" in return for a no-fee instructor.
Once that instructor moved on, there would be dozens more waiting to take their place.
I can see to some extent that when airline pilots return to instruction during the down-turn cycle of the industry, they generate bad feeling amongst those who have been instructing all along. Suddenly these people find that they are not called in so often because the FTO has found an eager and completely free source of instructors.
The shame of it all is that the customer still gets charged a "dual rate".
In conclusion, it is still the same story at your local "porta-kabin flying club". They now have a ready pool of fATPLs who turn to instructing to build their hours while they have nothing else to do.
These people will move on when they have a transport flying job and the next batch will be right behind them.
There is only one way that the whole thing could be changed and that is for the airlines to pay for the IR and type ratings after the ATPL theory exams and take FOs as "apprentice" pilots until they
get the magic 1500 hrs <ooops, I just saw a pig fly past....>
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 503
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
walkingthewalk, can't disagree (although I'm sure I saw a pig at 2000' today whilst I was teaching, it was a blue one I think!!)
This is, I feel, the crux of the matter. The student isn't getting a poorer instructor, after all we've all been though the course. But I'm bound to say that "professional" instructors may be a little better trained in flying skills.
I against and for, depending on my mood!
The shame of it all is that the customer still gets charged a "dual rate".
I against and for, depending on my mood!
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,511
Likes: 1,850
From: England
Fundamentally wages aren't going to go up because the customers cannot afford it.
You can only do so many hours a month - lets say you are able to squeeze in 800hrs in a very busy year. Lets say we would be happy to settle for a wage of about 1.4 times average national wage i.e. £30,000.
So thats £37.50 an hour. Now add on the National Insurance contributions and you are going to cost well over £40 an hour. Not to mention a pension scheme.
I don't think the average PPL'er would or could bear that price hike. You'd end up killing the UK flight training industry and Florida would get busier. More probably people would look at the world of sports flying, ultralights, gliding etc and conclude Group A is just too much money for too little gain.
I myself now consider Group A flying too expensive for me and my money is headed to four stroke flexwing microlights.
Syndicates offering the very latest machines start from £25hr.
Decent 2 up touring range of 8hrs, 1,000fpm climb rates and all they need is an oil and filter change every 50hrs which you can do yourself!
I think I've seen the future and its not Group A.
WWW
http://www.pegasusaviation.co.uk/Peg..._Executive.htm
You can only do so many hours a month - lets say you are able to squeeze in 800hrs in a very busy year. Lets say we would be happy to settle for a wage of about 1.4 times average national wage i.e. £30,000.
So thats £37.50 an hour. Now add on the National Insurance contributions and you are going to cost well over £40 an hour. Not to mention a pension scheme.
I don't think the average PPL'er would or could bear that price hike. You'd end up killing the UK flight training industry and Florida would get busier. More probably people would look at the world of sports flying, ultralights, gliding etc and conclude Group A is just too much money for too little gain.
I myself now consider Group A flying too expensive for me and my money is headed to four stroke flexwing microlights.
Syndicates offering the very latest machines start from £25hr.
Decent 2 up touring range of 8hrs, 1,000fpm climb rates and all they need is an oil and filter change every 50hrs which you can do yourself!
I think I've seen the future and its not Group A.
WWW
http://www.pegasusaviation.co.uk/Peg..._Executive.htm
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: England
www: I wonder what the fundamental reason is for your average punter accepting the relatively higher charges for PPL(H) training.
Can we safely come to the conclusion that if they want it bad enough AND there is no choice (this is the key point I think) then they will pay.
Just focusing on the UK, I would agree up to the point that the Group A fixed wing training market would contract but I don't think it would disappear.
Somehow I cannot see that many FTOs are in business for the love of it so I would think that if they had to (another key point) pay more for instructors then they would.
I don't know if I missed something but I cannot remember the last time when PPL training (or any flight training !) costs were reduced due to a down-turn in the market
As for the flex-wing mode of transport......I would think great fun but not as practicle as "normal" aircraft ?
Can we safely come to the conclusion that if they want it bad enough AND there is no choice (this is the key point I think) then they will pay.
Just focusing on the UK, I would agree up to the point that the Group A fixed wing training market would contract but I don't think it would disappear.
Somehow I cannot see that many FTOs are in business for the love of it so I would think that if they had to (another key point) pay more for instructors then they would.
I don't know if I missed something but I cannot remember the last time when PPL training (or any flight training !) costs were reduced due to a down-turn in the market
As for the flex-wing mode of transport......I would think great fun but not as practicle as "normal" aircraft ?
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Walkingthewalk - Yes people do pay the extra for PPL(H), but look at the difference in numbers! If you raised the fixed wing prices you would almost certainly NOT have the students (AND of course the instructors that teach them) in the numbers we have at present.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 503
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Yes but.... there are a lot more fixed wing a/c flying (and revenue earning) than rotary, so surely demand would require supply and the big airlines would just have to pay more for their recruits (they can afford to!!).
I agree that to some extent the neddy who wants to just pootle about the sky for fun might suffer.
I agree that to some extent the neddy who wants to just pootle about the sky for fun might suffer.