What do you teach to do with the flaps on a touch and go?
For the PA28, I agree with Charlie Foxtrot India.
But in the Bulldog (which had rather more power), we always left the flaps as they were until airborne at a safe height.
Whatever - DON'T fiddle with the trimmer on the ground during a touch-and-go, particularly if it's one of those Austin 7 window winders dangling from the ceiling in an early PA28! Because the body movement can induce a rudder PIO and off the side of the runway you go!
But in the Bulldog (which had rather more power), we always left the flaps as they were until airborne at a safe height.
Whatever - DON'T fiddle with the trimmer on the ground during a touch-and-go, particularly if it's one of those Austin 7 window winders dangling from the ceiling in an early PA28! Because the body movement can induce a rudder PIO and off the side of the runway you go!
Flaps set for t/o prior to power application.
Trim set if a/c type has a significant adverse change between configurations. If it's so wrong to do the first take-off without setting trim, why is it different for subsequent take offs?
The above two get modified if it's a very short runway.
Trim set if a/c type has a significant adverse change between configurations. If it's so wrong to do the first take-off without setting trim, why is it different for subsequent take offs?
The above two get modified if it's a very short runway.
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The only accident in my 24 years of flying was caused by a student raising the gear instead of the flaps on a PA34. The aircraft was a total loss. After that I will not do touch and go landings in high performance aircraft. Every landing is to a full stop with a taxi back and full post landing and pretakeoff checks.
This increases cockpit procedure training and discipline and allows a full check of the health of vital systems before takeoff. For light aircraft I teach a routine of when aircraft is rolling straight and on centerline flaps up,look up, trim adjusted, look up
carb heat in, full power.
This increases cockpit procedure training and discipline and allows a full check of the health of vital systems before takeoff. For light aircraft I teach a routine of when aircraft is rolling straight and on centerline flaps up,look up, trim adjusted, look up
carb heat in, full power.
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Touch & go's on Grass
There was an interesting discussion on the Private Flying forum a little while ago. started off about soft vs hard runway preference and ended up talking about touch and go's.
You can find it here
on the last two pages.
BTW Hope the link works, its the first time Ive tried it.....
......maybe it will work now?
Regards, SD..
You can find it here
on the last two pages.
BTW Hope the link works, its the first time Ive tried it.....
......maybe it will work now?
Regards, SD..
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Excellent timing.
Last weekend I flew the first flight with an instructor at a new school - a simple check-out on a PA28 prior to renting to do some solo night-flying. There were several reasons I was not happy with the instructor (enough that, if I was doing any more than a checkout, I'd have asked for another instructor - but since I only expect to fly with him once more, it's not really a problem).
One thing which he did that I found very strange was his technique for flap retraction on a touch+go, which was to add power immediately, then retract the drag flaps and rotate, then retract the remaining flaps in stages at 300'. This is in contrast to every other instructor I've flown with in any type, who have all taught me to retract the flaps to the appropriate take-off setting, then add power. And this seems to be the way most people on this thread are doing it, too.
Does anyone have any opinions on my new instructor's technique? This is in a PA28-161.
Thanks,
FFF
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Last weekend I flew the first flight with an instructor at a new school - a simple check-out on a PA28 prior to renting to do some solo night-flying. There were several reasons I was not happy with the instructor (enough that, if I was doing any more than a checkout, I'd have asked for another instructor - but since I only expect to fly with him once more, it's not really a problem).
One thing which he did that I found very strange was his technique for flap retraction on a touch+go, which was to add power immediately, then retract the drag flaps and rotate, then retract the remaining flaps in stages at 300'. This is in contrast to every other instructor I've flown with in any type, who have all taught me to retract the flaps to the appropriate take-off setting, then add power. And this seems to be the way most people on this thread are doing it, too.
Does anyone have any opinions on my new instructor's technique? This is in a PA28-161.
Thanks,
FFF
-------------
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Another thing which is a factor on some A/C like a PA-28 is. Say your stall warner is inop. You over rotate with 25 / 40 degree of flap, The Turbulent Air Flow is deflected by the flap away from the elevator, hense you do not get a buffet as a stall warning + the a/c stalls at a Low nose Attitude, that one has got a few people. A good demo with an instructor is, at a safe Alt for stalling, pull the stall warner breaker, Simulate a go-around at height and then over rotate with 40 flap. Height loss will be 300ft +.- Make sure to reset the breaker.
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Maintain directional control.
Identify, raise flaps (PA28)
Apply full power.
Check carb air - cold.
Maintain directional control
Rotate, climb, check for drift, trim.
Re-check for correct climb speed.
CFI, your thoughts ?
Identify, raise flaps (PA28)
Apply full power.
Check carb air - cold.
Maintain directional control
Rotate, climb, check for drift, trim.
Re-check for correct climb speed.
CFI, your thoughts ?
Sometimes I've used a power first method but that's when I've been operating from a very short runway. Even then I taught that the flap & trim position must be set immediately after power was applied.
It also depended on my familiarity with the a/c type & how its handling would be affected.
It also depended on my familiarity with the a/c type & how its handling would be affected.
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Personally it depends on the aircraft type and the runway I am using.
For example if in a retractable undercarriage aircraft I won’t let my students do solo touch and go. If it is dual then I tell them to leave there hands on the throttle (s) and maintain directional control while I raise the flaps re set the trim and then if sufficient runway available I tell them to apply full power.
If I am in a non retractable undercarriage aircraft on a long runway then I allow the student to reset the flap and trim and apply power. In this case I am judging the students ability to assess whether on he/she has sufficient runway remaining to conduct the touch and go and his ability to maintain control of the aircraft during this sequence.
But what are we teaching students here? We conduct circuit training to teach the student how to take off and land, so therefore this should be the foremost in our mind. The only reason we do a touch and go is to save time. So therefore the main aim of most circuit lessons is to teach the student how to take off and land properly. I believe as instructors we spend to much time teaching them the correct touch and go sequence.
In fact in some aircraft the most critical part of the landing sequence is when the aircraft slows to taxi speed and the controls become less effective. (For example a tail wheel aircraft doing a crosswind landing )
For example if in a retractable undercarriage aircraft I won’t let my students do solo touch and go. If it is dual then I tell them to leave there hands on the throttle (s) and maintain directional control while I raise the flaps re set the trim and then if sufficient runway available I tell them to apply full power.
If I am in a non retractable undercarriage aircraft on a long runway then I allow the student to reset the flap and trim and apply power. In this case I am judging the students ability to assess whether on he/she has sufficient runway remaining to conduct the touch and go and his ability to maintain control of the aircraft during this sequence.
But what are we teaching students here? We conduct circuit training to teach the student how to take off and land, so therefore this should be the foremost in our mind. The only reason we do a touch and go is to save time. So therefore the main aim of most circuit lessons is to teach the student how to take off and land properly. I believe as instructors we spend to much time teaching them the correct touch and go sequence.
In fact in some aircraft the most critical part of the landing sequence is when the aircraft slows to taxi speed and the controls become less effective. (For example a tail wheel aircraft doing a crosswind landing )
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Charlie Foxtrot India has hit the nail on the head...
You need to be careful here because the effect of adding full power (particularly on a bumpy grass strip) will full flap can have you airborne again at a speed below your safe Vmca. This can be quite a suprise for a novice pilot.
I have found that the C172 is particularly prone to this type of thing, and the 152 can also be a risk. The correct proceedure in these aircraft is indeed to raise the flaps prior to applying full power, or, at least get them travelling first. Often the effect of all that prop stream over the wing and those big flaps *can* be enough to produce the required lift to leave the ground - particularly if it coincides with a suitable bump in the surface!
If you are concerned that waiting for flap retraction before applying full power will somehow render you short of runway to get safely airborne again, then I suggest stopping and back tracking is the only option open to you. If it is necessary to touch and go then be sure that the strip you are using is an appropriate length!
Don't compromise your safety and that of your student to try and accomodate what may be an unsuitable strip, because if your margins are that tight it rather suggests that full stop landings would be far safer... If the strip is long enough there should be pleanty of time to configure the a/c correctly for the next phase without being in a panic to get the power on.
Nish
You need to be careful here because the effect of adding full power (particularly on a bumpy grass strip) will full flap can have you airborne again at a speed below your safe Vmca. This can be quite a suprise for a novice pilot.
I have found that the C172 is particularly prone to this type of thing, and the 152 can also be a risk. The correct proceedure in these aircraft is indeed to raise the flaps prior to applying full power, or, at least get them travelling first. Often the effect of all that prop stream over the wing and those big flaps *can* be enough to produce the required lift to leave the ground - particularly if it coincides with a suitable bump in the surface!
If you are concerned that waiting for flap retraction before applying full power will somehow render you short of runway to get safely airborne again, then I suggest stopping and back tracking is the only option open to you. If it is necessary to touch and go then be sure that the strip you are using is an appropriate length!
Don't compromise your safety and that of your student to try and accomodate what may be an unsuitable strip, because if your margins are that tight it rather suggests that full stop landings would be far safer... If the strip is long enough there should be pleanty of time to configure the a/c correctly for the next phase without being in a panic to get the power on.
Nish
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This will always be an interesting topic as we all have had different instuctors in our past. One thing I notice is that some of you say to put the carb heat in on the runway were as I will put it in at 300ft on the approach. As for the flap I go for safely down retract the flap and apply full power,
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Am not an instructor, but following on from destructor, no need to check Carby Cold if you've done it during pre-landing checks.
As for me:
1) direction stablised
2) flaps up/set for takeoff
3) full power
Number (2) as appropriate for type.
As for me:
1) direction stablised
2) flaps up/set for takeoff
3) full power
Number (2) as appropriate for type.
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Instruct mostly on the 152. If not the 152 or 172, then of course I follow the POH for a rejected landing.
In the 152, Power, carb heat, then flaps (to 10deg) for me. I'm open to suggestions, but it seems to me that you want the most airspeed available at the soonest time. Primarily instruct out of shortish(2000-3000 ft) strips
In the 152, Power, carb heat, then flaps (to 10deg) for me. I'm open to suggestions, but it seems to me that you want the most airspeed available at the soonest time. Primarily instruct out of shortish(2000-3000 ft) strips
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Airmed procedure C172:
1)check runway lenght availability!
2)centreline + directional control
3)flaps UP (or 10° for short field)
4)TO power set+ carb.heat cold
5)40kts callout (40Knots. Instruments green)
6)55kts. Rotate
7)60 kts Vx until 400ft. AGL
8)400ft.70kts.(Vy) Check flaps UP climb power SET.
9) After take off Checklist at 1000ft AGL.
Procedure P28R:
1) check runway lenght
2) centreline+ control
3) Flaps 10°
4) TO power set
5) 60mph. callout (60kts. Instruments green)
6)80mph Rotate, initial climb Vx 90mph
7) Positive climb callout (VSI+ Altimeter)
8) Gear Up (when NO runway available!!)(transition No lights)
9) 400ft AGL: Acceleration speed 100kts.
10) Flaps Retract (in stages)
11) throttle 25''
12)prop 2500rpm
13) After TO checklist at 1000ft AGL
as you can see, we do some things differently here, but we are convinced that it improves safety.
The Vx is done especially to get as high as possible within a certain distance, so we can RETURN at 400ft. or higher in case of problems...
Students get really drilled at this procedure, and it works in reality! (never return lower than 400ft on the C172, never below 600ft. on Piper!!!)
1)check runway lenght availability!
2)centreline + directional control
3)flaps UP (or 10° for short field)
4)TO power set+ carb.heat cold
5)40kts callout (40Knots. Instruments green)
6)55kts. Rotate
7)60 kts Vx until 400ft. AGL
8)400ft.70kts.(Vy) Check flaps UP climb power SET.
9) After take off Checklist at 1000ft AGL.
Procedure P28R:
1) check runway lenght
2) centreline+ control
3) Flaps 10°
4) TO power set
5) 60mph. callout (60kts. Instruments green)
6)80mph Rotate, initial climb Vx 90mph
7) Positive climb callout (VSI+ Altimeter)
8) Gear Up (when NO runway available!!)(transition No lights)
9) 400ft AGL: Acceleration speed 100kts.
10) Flaps Retract (in stages)
11) throttle 25''
12)prop 2500rpm
13) After TO checklist at 1000ft AGL
as you can see, we do some things differently here, but we are convinced that it improves safety.
The Vx is done especially to get as high as possible within a certain distance, so we can RETURN at 400ft. or higher in case of problems...
Students get really drilled at this procedure, and it works in reality! (never return lower than 400ft on the C172, never below 600ft. on Piper!!!)
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In general, isn't it preferable to apply power first rather than using up runway and losing valuable momentum while fiddling around with flap and so on?
In my book a touch and go is the same as a go-around and the same procedures should be followed: power first then flap retracted to take-off setting. If the student can't handle the aircraft during this phase of flight, then they might be better off with stop-start circuits until they are fully comfortable with go-around procedures.
Despegue:- On a specific point, 10° flap is not a recommended position for take-off in the P28R: either zero or 25° are your choices! Vr is 55kts for 25° flap, and 65kts for normal take-off.
In my book a touch and go is the same as a go-around and the same procedures should be followed: power first then flap retracted to take-off setting. If the student can't handle the aircraft during this phase of flight, then they might be better off with stop-start circuits until they are fully comfortable with go-around procedures.
Despegue:- On a specific point, 10° flap is not a recommended position for take-off in the P28R: either zero or 25° are your choices! Vr is 55kts for 25° flap, and 65kts for normal take-off.
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Flapless on a P28 takes too much runway, and is not recommended in Spain with its temperatures.
Flaps 25 for short field is indeed the correct procedure. I know that 10° is not mentioned in the Handbook, but that does not say that it is not an approved setting... By the way, Oxford uses the same settings I've been told by an ex Oxford guy.( can anyone confirm) Anyway, it is good practice for the students.
Our ASI 's are in Mph on the Arrows.
Flaps 25 for short field is indeed the correct procedure. I know that 10° is not mentioned in the Handbook, but that does not say that it is not an approved setting... By the way, Oxford uses the same settings I've been told by an ex Oxford guy.( can anyone confirm) Anyway, it is good practice for the students.
Our ASI 's are in Mph on the Arrows.
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Despegue,
There's no data quoted in the POH for a 10° flap setting so I'm interested to know from where you can extrapolate performance figures for this type of operation. Plus, you're using a higher Vr than quoted for a normal TO and so, with the extra drag of 10° flap, the effect would be to LENGTHEN the take-off run.
I'd also be very interested to know who doesn't recommend normal TO procedures in Spain and why; I've flown there in my Arrow a few times and never had a problem.
Gash
There's no data quoted in the POH for a 10° flap setting so I'm interested to know from where you can extrapolate performance figures for this type of operation. Plus, you're using a higher Vr than quoted for a normal TO and so, with the extra drag of 10° flap, the effect would be to LENGTHEN the take-off run.
I'd also be very interested to know who doesn't recommend normal TO procedures in Spain and why; I've flown there in my Arrow a few times and never had a problem.
Gash
