Is pilot training mostly "the blind leading the blind"?
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From: DM33
Another example was to improve landings by getting the student to fly circuits without landing. Instead, flying along the runway low and slow before going around. Eventually, they learned better control at landing speed, and smoother landings were achieved under control when the stated objective was to prevent the aircraft from touching down, rather than landing.
Last edited by EXDAC; 10th June 2025 at 13:05.
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From: U.K.
Yes! You're here!
There is an incredible wealth of wisdom and experience here. We have such a great cross section of pilots here, with so much to offer. It's just a matter of asking. You'll find a pretty fair balance of responses - the wise members here want to share their knowledge.
The key is that the askers need to consider the value of the information that they receive as an answer, as much as the source. I have known many [mere] PPL's, who with their lifetime of serious recreational flying, particularly on odd types were a wealth of wisdom. And, if in doubt, PM a poster. I have never been disappointed with a PM discussion, when I wanted to keep things out of the forefront.
I have learned (sometimes the embarrassing way), that a license, or letters after your name, are not the end of your education!
There is an incredible wealth of wisdom and experience here. We have such a great cross section of pilots here, with so much to offer. It's just a matter of asking. You'll find a pretty fair balance of responses - the wise members here want to share their knowledge.
The key is that the askers need to consider the value of the information that they receive as an answer, as much as the source. I have known many [mere] PPL's, who with their lifetime of serious recreational flying, particularly on odd types were a wealth of wisdom. And, if in doubt, PM a poster. I have never been disappointed with a PM discussion, when I wanted to keep things out of the forefront.
I have learned (sometimes the embarrassing way), that a license, or letters after your name, are not the end of your education!
Much of what I've learned over the years (and indeed many stories I still use to illustrate training) came from this very forum. Sometimes you have to separate the wheat from the chaff a bit, but there is no flying forum I have ever found that has the breadth and depth of knowledge about flying as this one.
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From: A place in the sun
Manwell,
Your example of flying low and slowly down the runway can also work in a large jet transport. We had an excellent training captain on VC10s, ex-RAF and an instructor of long experience. When a young student was having trouble with judging the flare, he flew the aircraft along the whole length of the runway, holding it in the landing attitude and gently touching it down several times while asking the student to focus on the far end of the runway. He wanted the student to 'feel' the correct height and attitude purely by looking out of the window. Forget the numbers at this stage, if they were right during the last part of the approach, the flare must be judged by what you see and 'feel' when looking down the runway towards the far end.
It worked. I know, because the student was a good friend of mine.
Your example of flying low and slowly down the runway can also work in a large jet transport. We had an excellent training captain on VC10s, ex-RAF and an instructor of long experience. When a young student was having trouble with judging the flare, he flew the aircraft along the whole length of the runway, holding it in the landing attitude and gently touching it down several times while asking the student to focus on the far end of the runway. He wanted the student to 'feel' the correct height and attitude purely by looking out of the window. Forget the numbers at this stage, if they were right during the last part of the approach, the flare must be judged by what you see and 'feel' when looking down the runway towards the far end.
It worked. I know, because the student was a good friend of mine.
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From: Here 'n' there!
Where students seem to be keen, having managed to get close to the runway, to get it on the ground ASAP (the sort of "I'll be glad to get this bit over and done with!" approach some have to landing
), I regularly used the "...... and now say to to yourself, "I must not land! .... I must not land! ...... I must not land!" while looking right down the runway.".They were consistently surprised that the plane landed wayyyyy better when it wanted to land and not when they wanted it to land!
Of course, you had to emphasise it worked on some runways (IE NOT on short, wet, grass runways!!!!) but, certainly, for the early stages of teaching landings, it worked really well and soon a good technique became established without the need of strange ritualistic chanting.
Last edited by Hot 'n' High; 10th June 2025 at 10:51.
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From: Ontario, Canada
I regularly used the "...... and now say to to yourself, "I must not land! .... I must not land! ...... I must not land!" while looking right down the runway.".
They were consistently surprised that the plane landed wayyyyy better when it wanted to land and not when they wanted it to land!
They were consistently surprised that the plane landed wayyyyy better when it wanted to land and not when they wanted it to land!
To the larger point of:
is there a forum that allows experienced pilots to pass on their hard won experience to casualties of this system?
Though I am an "instructor" in Canada for the purpose of a float or multi engine endorsement, I am not a trained flying instructor for ab initio training. As such, I do not inject myself into the role of a formal ab initio flying instructor, as that is not within the scope of my qualifications. Further to that, though I have encountered flying instructors with whom I seem to hold differences of opinion, it's not mine to challenge their qualifications - mostly. That said, I see value here in gathering together a resource for new instructors. It would be informal, and not purporting to conform to any particular requirements, but there is lots of wisdom here, which should be a resource to newer instructors.
If I were to go to the administrator to ask to add a forum for instructor/training tribal knowledge, what would the instructors here like to see?
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From: Here 'n' there!
Like the time I flew a "Trial Lesson" having asked the student (and his wife) why he wanted to have a Trial Lesson - just so you can then tailor your approach to the Lesson to suit the customer. His wife had just bought it for his birthday - as many people do, nothing more. Not a problem. Well, on T/O at about 100-150ft, the student suddenly froze and started hyper-ventilating. Thankfully he let go of the controls but I was going to get back on the ground ASAP - and without using words like "May-day" on the radio - just in case it freaked him out even more! ATC could clearly tell from my tone of voice that I was going to fly a low-level cct ........ no matter what they said!!!!!!!!!!Having landed, he still couldn't actually speak - so I quizzed his wife who said "Oh, we go abroad quite a lot to visit family - I hate ferries and he hates flying so I thought this might cure him of his fear of flying!". After telling her, in no uncertain terms, that her not mentioning that small factoid to me when I'd asked earlier could have easily killed her husband ..... and me ( I was still quite shaken up myself!!) ....... I used the remaining 0.9 of an hour to take her on the Trial Lesson. She was actually not a bad student pilot and we had a great lesson despite the fact that, earlier, I had been very, very blunt with her once she'd told me why she'd bought him the flight!!!!!!! Oh, and ATC fully understood why I hadn't used words like "May-day" once I had explained what had happened!!!!!!
... Funny, I have found exactly that! On the bare ice of a frozen lake, in my C 150, I taught my teenage cousin to land in an hour or so. No runway boundaries at all, just endless surface. It was my patter of "pull... pause... pull, pull, pause, pull...." which lead her to understand the nuances of holding it off for a nice landing. I wish I'd been taught that way!........
The "I must not land" chant is slightly different. It more breaks the psychological desire to get the aircraft on the deck ASAP which I find is often a problem - you are getting them to remind themselves to use the "hold off" skill longer than they really want to - but they need to have been taught the mechanics of how to "hold off" already. Often, such things are closely related but are subtly different and others may have different approaches!
Thread Starter
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From: Brisbane
Back to the slightly less worrying topic of landing ...... I generally avoid using things like "pull... pause... pull, pull, pause, pull....". I feel that could lead to "notchy" pilot inputs when you really just want slowly and smoothly increasing back-pressure to hold off - but without climbing either. You spend ages drumming in the smooth application of controls so "pull... pause... pull..." sort of goes against that. The "hold off" skill is best taught with a ground briefing first, then flying level in upper air exercises as speed bleeds off and then down the runway as speed bleeds off to fine-tune the skill if more practice is needed.
The "I must not land" chant is slightly different. It more breaks the psychological desire to get the aircraft on the deck ASAP which I find is often a problem - you are getting them to remind themselves to use the "hold off" skill longer than they really want to - but they need to have been taught the mechanics of how to "hold off" already. Often, such things are closely related but are subtly different and others may have different approaches!
The "I must not land" chant is slightly different. It more breaks the psychological desire to get the aircraft on the deck ASAP which I find is often a problem - you are getting them to remind themselves to use the "hold off" skill longer than they really want to - but they need to have been taught the mechanics of how to "hold off" already. Often, such things are closely related but are subtly different and others may have different approaches!
Pilot DAR also raises a great point about teaching students to prevent the aircraft from landing, obviously while as low and slow as possible. That would avoid the anxiety associated with a protracted hold off, which usually happens when approach speed is too high, and that raises another critical aspect of flight training - why are approach speeds often higher than necessary?
In reply to your query about what we'd like to see, how about a forum where controversial topics related to flight training can be discussed objectively? Having said that, it'd be important that any discussion was disciplined and rational, with the clear objective of arriving at a logical conclusion, rather than allowing it to become heated.
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From: Brisbane
Sadly, on the flip side you can get......
An older (40's?) fantastic guy who was actually above average in his flying ability too (Vs hours flown) ..... but ...... who went totally to pieces when he had to use the radio. He and I spent ages doing extra RT, other instructors flew with him, he got to know the ATCOs in the pub so he knew who he was chatting to..... We even got him to fly with another Club on the field. But none of us could crack it. It was so frustrating. Eventually, he and I agreed he should try a much more rural location (ie with less RT) to continue his training but, sadly, I lost touch so never knew if he finally cracked it. I suspect he didn't sadly. What a shame as, flying-wise, he was really quite good. I still wonder what else we could have done for him 25 years down the line.
An older (40's?) fantastic guy who was actually above average in his flying ability too (Vs hours flown) ..... but ...... who went totally to pieces when he had to use the radio. He and I spent ages doing extra RT, other instructors flew with him, he got to know the ATCOs in the pub so he knew who he was chatting to..... We even got him to fly with another Club on the field. But none of us could crack it. It was so frustrating. Eventually, he and I agreed he should try a much more rural location (ie with less RT) to continue his training but, sadly, I lost touch so never knew if he finally cracked it. I suspect he didn't sadly. What a shame as, flying-wise, he was really quite good. I still wonder what else we could have done for him 25 years down the line.
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From: Here 'n' there!
In summary (for others reading), it was about a fair trainee pilot in his 40's who simply could not get to grips with R/T in flight.It was so very sad - we tried everything. I used to do Groundschool sessions anyway with all my students covering the use of RT as I know some don't find it easy to begin with so it helps. We'd practice things on the ground just to get them used to holding an "aeronautical conversation", usually, before even trying in the aircraft - but, here, the "block" once in the aircraft was like a wall. We did many hours "extra" G/S, all free as I personally wanted to see him crack it - as I say he could fly and nav quite well - it was just the radio when in the aircraft........... On the ground, he was fine.............
In the end, he used to get really frustrated - "But, at work, I talk all the time to strangers on the phone all day on subjects I've no idea they'll be bringing up so I often have to switch trains of thought instantly. Here, most of the time, I know exactly what they (ATC) are going to say/ask - I even write stuff down before-hand when I can as I know what I will need to give them - but I just can't get it out when I have to press the PTT...........". The added risk was, when "locked-out" by R/T fear (or whatever), the aircraft was simply left to it's own devices + while concentrating on his non-radio call, the tension in his hand would often slowly drift the aircraft off in random directions. I didn't really feel it was helpful to add "Unusual Attitude Recoveries" into the mix - especially when in the circuit!
Thread Starter
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From: Brisbane
In a situation like that, the only plausible cause is his subconscious mind is placing obstacles in his way, HnH. It would be interesting to know how things worked out for him later, since things like that can make or break a bloke, and I'm inclined to think it eventually made him better, rather than bitter. Per Ardua Ad Astra.
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From: Here 'n' there!
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
I had an unusual student back in the 90s. he was a retired 747 captain, who owned his own H500 helicopter, on a private licence, and had flown around 700 hours in it in a foreign country that sounds like Long Dong.
He wanted to bring the Hughes back to Oz, get a commercial licence, and work part-time for a company like ours. So, we started in the R22 as his machine wasn't here yet. He had serious problems with the little Robbie. When he eventually worked out how to control it, after several hours, we worked on the more complex aerial works goodies, and then got to navigation. Here, he fell apart. He couldn't fly the aircraft, read a map, relate it to the ground, and use the radio. His airline career had involved telling the FO to do things while he worked on just one brain channel - doing the "frequency hopping", turning the one available brain channel onto many tasks, a bit at a time, in a helicopter just overloaded his brain. There was no indication that he had already flown for 700 hours.
After a few attempts at nav, I had to say to him that he wasn't going to make it - well, not by our standards anyway. He thanked me, and some time later re-appeared as a 747 captain who made a sad series of mistakes and landed one without a nosewheel.
I also had occasion to need to hire another instructor for our growing school and charter business. I approached a pilot I had met before, knowing that he had an instructor rating, and asked him if he was interested. His response was "Oh, no! My rating is just a (name deleted) rating - I paid the money, flew only half the hours needed, got signed up by the CFI - and I know nothing about instructing!"
He wanted to bring the Hughes back to Oz, get a commercial licence, and work part-time for a company like ours. So, we started in the R22 as his machine wasn't here yet. He had serious problems with the little Robbie. When he eventually worked out how to control it, after several hours, we worked on the more complex aerial works goodies, and then got to navigation. Here, he fell apart. He couldn't fly the aircraft, read a map, relate it to the ground, and use the radio. His airline career had involved telling the FO to do things while he worked on just one brain channel - doing the "frequency hopping", turning the one available brain channel onto many tasks, a bit at a time, in a helicopter just overloaded his brain. There was no indication that he had already flown for 700 hours.
After a few attempts at nav, I had to say to him that he wasn't going to make it - well, not by our standards anyway. He thanked me, and some time later re-appeared as a 747 captain who made a sad series of mistakes and landed one without a nosewheel.
I also had occasion to need to hire another instructor for our growing school and charter business. I approached a pilot I had met before, knowing that he had an instructor rating, and asked him if he was interested. His response was "Oh, no! My rating is just a (name deleted) rating - I paid the money, flew only half the hours needed, got signed up by the CFI - and I know nothing about instructing!"
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Brisbane
... Funny, I have found exactly that! On the bare ice of a frozen lake, in my C 150, I taught my teenage cousin to land in an hour or so. No runway boundaries at all, just endless surface. It was my patter of "pull... pause... pull, pull, pause, pull...." which lead her to understand the nuances of holding it off for a nice landing. I wish I'd been taught that way!
To the larger point of:
We can do that here - better.
Though I am an "instructor" in Canada for the purpose of a float or multi engine endorsement, I am not a trained flying instructor for ab initio training. As such, I do not inject myself into the role of a formal ab initio flying instructor, as that is not within the scope of my qualifications. Further to that, though I have encountered flying instructors with whom I seem to hold differences of opinion, it's not mine to challenge their qualifications - mostly. That said, I see value here in gathering together a resource for new instructors. It would be informal, and not purporting to conform to any particular requirements, but there is lots of wisdom here, which should be a resource to newer instructors.
If I were to go to the administrator to ask to add a forum for instructor/training tribal knowledge, what would the instructors here like to see?
To the larger point of:
We can do that here - better.
Though I am an "instructor" in Canada for the purpose of a float or multi engine endorsement, I am not a trained flying instructor for ab initio training. As such, I do not inject myself into the role of a formal ab initio flying instructor, as that is not within the scope of my qualifications. Further to that, though I have encountered flying instructors with whom I seem to hold differences of opinion, it's not mine to challenge their qualifications - mostly. That said, I see value here in gathering together a resource for new instructors. It would be informal, and not purporting to conform to any particular requirements, but there is lots of wisdom here, which should be a resource to newer instructors.
If I were to go to the administrator to ask to add a forum for instructor/training tribal knowledge, what would the instructors here like to see?
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From: Ontario, Canada
It'd be a place where "out of the box" thinking could be shared
What we must not have (and the "we" is our industry, not just here at PPRuNe) are techniques presented as a good idea, which are not. One glaring example of this I see, and perpetuated by Youtube videos, are long Vx departures for no good reason (there's no obstacle to be cleared). Though possible, and within the limitations of the airplane, it's a technique which is not a normal procedure for normal departures. Sure, the plane will do a Vx departure, but in doing so, the pilot has placed themselves in a regime of flight from which an engine failure might not be recoverable to a successful glide.
So, "Out of the box" thinking is worth the thinking exercise, but maybe less so the doing. If the thinking exercise gets the thinker to the point of understanding why a permitted technique is less safe than another permitted technique, and thus less wise, that's great. But, when I see newer pilots "trying" new things in airplanes, I often worry for/about them, if they have the whole picture in their mind.
We owe it to our industry to be a repository for wisdom of the most safe way to fly. Perhaps, for a circumstance, the most safe way to fly is not the safest way to fly, it's just the safest for that circumstance. Now we have to teach pilots now to avoid those circumstances!
How does the saying go: Use your superior wisdom to avoid circumstances which will require your superior skill....?
Thread Starter
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From: Brisbane
Yes, but..... "The box" will, in its entirety, be what's approved by the airplane limitations, and national regulations for operation of the aircraft. So, everything we discuss as normal operations must remain within that box. If we're discussing outside that box, it's probably either special purpose operations, or flight testing under a flight permit for that purpose. There are some discussions about that flying, but it must remain outside the box in the context of general flying, and certainly instruction.
What we must not have (and the "we" is our industry, not just here at PPRuNe) are techniques presented as a good idea, which are not. One glaring example of this I see, and perpetuated by Youtube videos, are long Vx departures for no good reason (there's no obstacle to be cleared). Though possible, and within the limitations of the airplane, it's a technique which is not a normal procedure for normal departures. Sure, the plane will do a Vx departure, but in doing so, the pilot has placed themselves in a regime of flight from which an engine failure might not be recoverable to a successful glide.
So, "Out of the box" thinking is worth the thinking exercise, but maybe less so the doing. If the thinking exercise gets the thinker to the point of understanding why a permitted technique is less safe than another permitted technique, and thus less wise, that's great. But, when I see newer pilots "trying" new things in airplanes, I often worry for/about them, if they have the whole picture in their mind.
We owe it to our industry to be a repository for wisdom of the most safe way to fly. Perhaps, for a circumstance, the most safe way to fly is not the safest way to fly, it's just the safest for that circumstance. Now we have to teach pilots now to avoid those circumstances!
How does the saying go: Use your superior wisdom to avoid circumstances which will require your superior skill....?
What we must not have (and the "we" is our industry, not just here at PPRuNe) are techniques presented as a good idea, which are not. One glaring example of this I see, and perpetuated by Youtube videos, are long Vx departures for no good reason (there's no obstacle to be cleared). Though possible, and within the limitations of the airplane, it's a technique which is not a normal procedure for normal departures. Sure, the plane will do a Vx departure, but in doing so, the pilot has placed themselves in a regime of flight from which an engine failure might not be recoverable to a successful glide.
So, "Out of the box" thinking is worth the thinking exercise, but maybe less so the doing. If the thinking exercise gets the thinker to the point of understanding why a permitted technique is less safe than another permitted technique, and thus less wise, that's great. But, when I see newer pilots "trying" new things in airplanes, I often worry for/about them, if they have the whole picture in their mind.
We owe it to our industry to be a repository for wisdom of the most safe way to fly. Perhaps, for a circumstance, the most safe way to fly is not the safest way to fly, it's just the safest for that circumstance. Now we have to teach pilots now to avoid those circumstances!
How does the saying go: Use your superior wisdom to avoid circumstances which will require your superior skill....?
That saying our using superior judgement to avoid circumstances requiring the use of superior skill is valid, but what's unsaid is that good judgement is often learned through experiencing the consequences of bad judgement, and superior skills aren't being taught because instructors have neither superior judgement or skill, so they scare students into avoiding circumstances demanding them, which clearly doesn't always work.
There's another old saying, You begin flying with two cups, one empty, and the other full. The full cup is of luck, the empty is of experience. The trick is filling the cup of experience before the cup of luck runs out. The point I'm trying to make is that instructors should be giving students the experience and judgement necessary to develop superior skills, rather than themselves relying on luck.
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From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=P8pihdksUHk&si=t_GX3ubmBvZ2CDgB
What at least one flying school, who seem to mass produce airline candidates has neglected to teach. Is the 4/5 point harness. I watched a YT star, who had the 4 point lock buckle mid chest, as the lap strap was so loose. Pulled up by the shoulder harness. This was in the landing part of the flight.
In the event of an extreme deceleration, the person not wearing that harness would get a broken back/spine at the point of the lock buckle.
Keep the lap strap, reasonably tight. Even better, use the full 5 points of the harness if you have it, on take off and landing. (The 5th between the legs, of course) this stops the lap strap rising.
There was a B737 accident years ago The Captain was not wearing full harness as the 5th strap was not "clicked in and locked".he was/will be in a wheel chair the rest of his life as. the buckle rose up his chest. The F/O walked away after rescue.
In the event of an extreme deceleration, the person not wearing that harness would get a broken back/spine at the point of the lock buckle.
Keep the lap strap, reasonably tight. Even better, use the full 5 points of the harness if you have it, on take off and landing. (The 5th between the legs, of course) this stops the lap strap rising.
There was a B737 accident years ago The Captain was not wearing full harness as the 5th strap was not "clicked in and locked".he was/will be in a wheel chair the rest of his life as. the buckle rose up his chest. The F/O walked away after rescue.
Last edited by RichardJones; 14th July 2025 at 20:09.
Thread Starter
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From: Brisbane
Although this has already been covered, EXDAC, I probably did use this for tailwheel training first, before adopting the same technique for all initial training. It just works better than anything else I've tried over 20 years, and I doubt any other method would achieve better results.
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From: Aus
I watched a YT star, who had the 4 point lock buckle mid chest, as the lap strap was so loose. Pulled up by the shoulder harness.